Flying with someone on your 6.

[SAS_KID]

A can you guys give me a list of ACM's that get that stinking red dot off your butt:D
I already know scissors and rolling scissors also slowing way down with a roll.

[Schatzi]

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=165629&highlight=darling


The move Morph pulls on that F6 in the end. twice.

Chop throttle, break hard, as soon as you see overshoot go WEP, roll over and up.



This works best against a faster, less nimble plane. It needs a bit of practice till you got the timing down.

Holler me for TA anytime!

[Simaril]

Always good to have a move for reversing a bad situation....but remember its even better to see teh situation coming and avoid it!

In a fight, keep a swivel head going, know where the bad guys are coming from, watch who they're chasing and how much speed /alt ("energy") they have -- what the aces call "situational awareness" or SA.

The same morph who could reverse with the flick of a stick used to say, "the only time you should look forward in a is when you pull the trigger"

[Ghosth]

How close? How fast?

Split S works well against a faster higher plane. Trick is to judge the timing right.

Too soon and he just zooms up again, doesn't burn any E.
Too late and your full of holes.


Of course the best is to not let them get there in the first place.

[scottydawg]

Originally posted by SAS_KID
A can you guys give me a list of ACM's that get that stinking red dot off your butt:D
I already know scissors and rolling scissors also slowing way down with a roll.

I'm no expert, but it really depends on what you're flying and what they're flying, as well as the tactical situation (i.e alt, relative speed, etc.)... for example you'll never get a Spit off your 6 when you're flying a 190 unless you can extend away without providing a shot. Likewise if you're flying the spit you can chop throttle and slam a nose down turn and planes like the 190 and 38 will blow by you.

Go to netaces.org, there are some excellent articles about ACMs and other topics that will help you tremendously.

AH has a very high learning curve and it can get frustrating as heck sometimes... also there's no "step" between the TA and the MA for ACM stuff unless you get a good trainer, so most of us newbs are way outclassed when we go into the MA.


I've been reading all the ACM webpages I can get my hands on, and also Soda's Aircraft Eval page (google Soda's aircraft and it will come up) is a totally awesome reference on what plane has what strengths and weaknesses.

[scottydawg]

SAS_KID:

Also there are TONS of films (Murdr does good ones, look three or four threads down from this one)  that you can watch and see just how to increase your odds of getting out of a jam. Nothing will work all the time, but there's usually some maneuver that will make your odds better. Unless you're just stalling at sea level, then you're screwed.

[TexMurphy]

Depends on how fast the enemy is, what distance and what plane you are in.

Ive got three favo things to do one for each very common situation.

Situation 1.

High fast con comming in on my six. Usually a BnZer.

At 1.5k I bank to the right and go into a shallow turn. I position him in the center of my top view. This forces him to have a huuuuuuuge lead on his shot. When he is about 600-800 away I start a barrell roll to the left keeping him in my top view. This forces him to shoot that very long lead shot into the barrell roll, extreamly hard shot, I get pinged like 1 in a 100.

When Im inverted in the barrell roll Im above and behind him. If he zooms out I let him go and extend away from him. If he commits to the fight with a break turn Im in position to get on his six.

Situation 2.

Slow approaching con on my six at about 2.0k distance. Not too uncommon but its sometimes hard to spot this early enough.

I do sometimes create this situation intentionally in big furballs. I grab someones attention and lead him out of the fight to get him alone. If he is in a faster plane this situation will automatically arrise.

The move Im about to describe requires aprox 1.5k separation. You can pull it off at 1.0k in some planes but often requires some modification to it. Closer then taht its not recommended.

What I do is I go into a very very long clockwise barrell roll. You want to strech it as long as you can and pull it as high as you can without becoming too slow. At the inverted position of the barrell roll you wana be flying in the same direction as you started the manouver. You arnt gonna be going exactly in the same direction but want it as close a possible.

Now you do a split S.

At the bottom of the split S you are just under your enemy in a perfect merge position. From here you pull a immelman and pop right in behind your enemey.

The risk with this manouver is that you either start it too late (less then 1.5k separation) or you get too slow in the barrell roll. If either of these two happen then your enemy will have a good shot at you by just going straight as you come out of the spilt S.

Reason I do this instead of a High YoYo, Flat turn or a Immelman is that the entry and exit points of these manouvers are in the same position on the depth axis.

When your enemy sees a High YoYo comming he will just follow you through it and hence you wount gain anything from it.

Also the above mentioned manouvers allow your enemy to get into a lead shot position. Not something you wana give him either.

The manouver I described has the exit position is further down the road of the depth axis then the entry position. This means that the enemy isnt closing in on you through out 50% of the manouver. Its first when you get to the Split S part that the gap closes between the enemy and your self.

This results in one very important thing. The enemy is very unlikely to follow you through your manouver. If he doesnt follow you through the barrell roll part you are already haf way out of his grasp. Reason he is very unlikely to follow you through that part is because most pilots are quite bad on reading barrell roll + other acm manouver combos and the fact that the distance isnt changing. If the distance aint changing he is comfortably on your six, he thinks...>=)

Hard manouver but very good one.

Situation 3.

Enemy within 1.5k slowly gaining on your six. Standard situation with enemy that has saddled up on your six.

Barrell rolls combined with scissor turns. If you are in a plane that rolls better then your enemy then you will twist out of his grip. Risk is the other planes in the area as you will get low and slow.

If you roll better make sure to not make the scissors too much like flat turns as you almost always turn worse in a better rolling plane.

If you are in a worse rolling plane and got the turn rate on your side well turn... but dont flat turn... make it more into linked low yoyo + high yoyo... dont exclude the roll out of your arsenal of acms as the more different manouvers you link together the less predictable you are... I like to go low yoyo to high yoyo and at the top of the high yoyo add roll into the equation...

Important thing in both of these sitautions is to be creative... use movement on as many axis as you can and make sure to manage your E... always add the vertical in there somewhere inorder to conserve the E....

Tex

[Simaril]

Originally posted by TexMurphy
....snip.....

Situation 2.

Slow approaching con on my six at about 2.0k distance. Not too uncommon but its sometimes hard to spot this early enough.

I do sometimes create this situation intentionally in big furballs. I grab someones attention and lead him out of the fight to get him alone. If he is in a faster plane this situation will automatically arrise.

The move Im about to describe requires aprox 1.5k separation. You can pull it off at 1.0k in some planes but often requires some modification to it. Closer then taht its not recommended.

What I do is I go into a very very long clockwise barrell roll. You want to strech it as long as you can and pull it as high as you can without becoming too slow. At the inverted position of the barrell roll you wana be flying in the same direction as you started the manouver. You arnt gonna be going exactly in the same direction but want it as close a possible.

Now you do a split S.

At the bottom of the split S you are just under your enemy in a perfect merge position. From here you pull a immelman and pop right in behind your enemey.

The risk with this manouver is that you either start it too late (less then 1.5k separation) or you get too slow in the barrell roll. If either of these two happen then your enemy will have a good shot at you by just going straight as you come out of the spilt S.

Reason I do this instead of a High YoYo, Flat turn or a Immelman is that the entry and exit points of these manouvers are in the same position on the depth axis.

When your enemy sees a High YoYo comming he will just follow you through it and hence you wount gain anything from it.

Also the above mentioned manouvers allow your enemy to get into a lead shot position. Not something you wana give him either.

The manouver I described has the exit position is further down the road of the depth axis then the entry position. This means that the enemy isnt closing in on you through out 50% of the manouver. Its first when you get to the Split S part that the gap closes between the enemy and your self.

This results in one very important thing. The enemy is very unlikely to follow you through your manouver. If he doesnt follow you through the barrell roll part you are already haf way out of his grasp. Reason he is very unlikely to follow you through that part is because most pilots are quite bad on reading barrell roll + other acm manouver combos and the fact that the distance isnt changing. If the distance aint changing he is comfortably on your six, he thinks...>=)

Hard manouver but very good one.

.....snip....

Tex

You have a film of this? Sounds like something I'd really like, but having trouble wrapping my head around it.

Let me see if I have the thng visualized.....

By going wide and high with that barrel roll, you're gaining lateral+vertical separation and giving up, um, linear separation as he closes. you're goung for a half barrel roll, and at the top inverted you want to essentially do the 2nd half of a loop (since you're already inverted), timed so you end up merging with him nose to nose but significantly under him. Then you continue the upward srtoke of a loop to come on his 6?

But wouldnt that timing mean he went way past you, and with the climb to his alt you'd have lost speed? And doesnt he react by trying to follow downward, maybe split-S 'ing himself since energy states are fairly equal with the initial slow close rate?

I must be visualizing this wrong....

[Murdr]

Originally posted by Schatzi
Chop throttle, break hard, as soon as you see overshoot go WEP, roll over and up.

Throttle chopping isnt required unless its equal E, come to think of it I very rarely do it at all.  
My package on that one.

Sim...  If you time the split-s to allow for turning 200 degrees, what you end up with is a merge with a pre-turn into an immel.  Forget the first half of the split-s for a moment, and just visualize the mechanics of 'getting under the merge'.  Gain that position on the first merge and all the standard rules apply thereafter.

[Simaril]

Ohhhhhh.....makes great sense now! Thanks!

[TexMurphy]

Im off to bed now but Ill see if I can film it in the morning..

You visualize it right but as Murdr says when you merge you are under him and already going up into the immelman.

He now only has one option and that is to just keep flying straight and extend. He does have higher speed and can extend out. But you will be on his high six as you come out of the immelman. You have the advantage if he extends.

If he goes into a immelman well then he is in a bad position as you won vertical separation big time. You will be able to get the shoot into his immelman.

If he flat turns. He is dead as you just drop in on his six.

It takes alot of timing and it is a very hard manouver. But when it works its a beauty.

Tex

[SAS_KID]

how about a list of ACM's? but that Split S thing works pretty well if you jugde it right but i usually go to soon cuz im afraid if i screw up.

[TexMurphy]

Its hard to list ACMs because each single ACM is quite worthless its when you chain ACMs together into a series of manouvers that you get the good results.

Look at it as your skateboarding game where you link moves into combo moves to scoore high points. Itīs really the same thing. One barrell roll on its own is totally useless but a barrell roll combined with a high yoyo creates a more effective manouver add a low yoyo another barrell roll a spit s and a nother high yoyo and you have a monster ACM combo.

Its the ability to feel the flow of the monster combos and knowing how to get into a certain position with such a combo that separates the avg from the good pilots.

Tex

[SAS_KID]

ah rgr makes perect sense. Now if i can get widewing to stop pwning me in the TA when i try to practice these manuvers.  he feeking outturned me with a 109F when i was in an A6M2:confused:

[Schatzi]

Originally posted by SAS_KID
ah rgr makes perect sense. Now if i can get widewing to stop pwning me in the TA when i try to practice these manuvers.  he feeking outturned me with a 109F when i was in an A6M2:confused:

rofl, yes, i know THAT feeling . But im pretty sure he didnt *outturn* you. Not in the proper sense of the word. Check out this thread and youll know what i mean .