Author Topic: Middle East Conflict (Read 2057 times)

Gunthr · « **Reply #15 on:** October 13, 2000, 12:36:00 PM »

I'm not a Clinton supporter, but I agree that all attempts to broker a peace in the middle east are commendable.

The instability and violence there are disturbing, and the effects are being felt all over the world.

funked · « **Reply #16 on:** October 13, 2000, 03:17:00 PM »

I'm ashamed that my country has supported and continues to support Israel.

Cabby · « **Reply #17 on:** October 13, 2000, 05:39:00 PM »

Quote:

"I'm ashamed that my country has supported and continues to support Israel."

Please explain why, Funked. The US is the only nation in the world that will go to the mat for Israel. Without US support of Israel, the Nazi Holocaust becomes a mere prelude to what would happen to the Jews in Israel. Don't tell me "it ain't so" because that's Bulls***.

I agree that the Palestinians should have a Homeland, but the main obstacles to that eventuality are the Palestinian's own Arab "brothers", who cynically use them for their own agendas.

I am shocked and dismayed by your position.

Cabby

Toad · « **Reply #18 on:** October 13, 2000, 06:48:00 PM »

Funked,

It’s like you said before. The barbarians are killing the barbarians. Only fools would step between them.

This is an ancient hatred here, once again with a strong religious element. There will be no reason. (IMHO, there will be no way for a country founded in part on religious tolerance to EVER understand the situation.)

At best another temporary, uneasy “peace” will result.

While I am not particularly proud of the US relationship to Israel (it has gone far beyond guaranteeing their survival and into uncalled for anti-Arab bias IMHO), I do feel some sort of Israel has a right to exist as a “homeland” for the Jews. Without US support that nation would never have lasted this long.

There’s the dilemma; I feel it’s right for them to have a homeland but clearly it will be a never-ending conflict. Were we right to ever become involved? Was it not always an impossible hope?

[This message has been edited by Toad (edited 10-13-2000).]

funked · « **Reply #19 on:** October 13, 2000, 06:49:00 PM »

Sorry, but what the Israelis have done to the people in that region over the last 55 years is disgusting and is little better than what the Nazis did to European Jews in the 30's and 40's.

The fact that any of my tax dollars go to help Israel makes me sick. And sadly billions of dollars are sent that way annually.

The Israelis have as much right to a homeland as do the American Indians. How many of you Americans would support a movement to evict you from your home, because the land you live on was once owned by some American Indian guy's great-great-great-great-grandfather?

[This message has been edited by funked (edited 10-13-2000).]

Karnak · « **Reply #20 on:** October 13, 2000, 07:08:00 PM »

The US should condemn Israeli actions in this latest bout of violence. Imagine if our troops had machine gunned civil rights protesters in the '60s.

The Israelis started this, then the Palestinians over-reacted.

Quote

Originally reported by BBC News:
...The spark that lit the tinderbox was a visit on 28 September by Ariel Sharon, leader of the Israeli Likud opposition, and a figure of loathing for most Palestinians, to a disputed holy site in East Jerusalem known to Arabs as Haram al-Sharif - or Noble Sanctuary - and to Jews as Temple Mount...

Condemning Israel would serve the following purposes:

Let the Palestinians and Arabs know that the United States is interested in a fair peace. This would allow us to continue to have standing as a moderator, as it is we're losing it because of how pro Israeli we are.

Let Israel know how upset we are to see soldiers using automatic weapons on boys and young men using stones. Israel can't cut ties with us because they'll be overwelmed without our support. Israel has to eat any crow we give them.

We shouldn't withdraw support, just condemn their actions.

This is very sad and disappointing.

Sisu
-Karnak

[This message has been edited by Karnak (edited 10-14-2000).]

Cabby · « **Reply #21 on:** October 13, 2000, 07:29:00 PM »

Funked:

Your statements are totally out of line and your comparison is ludicrous. I won't discuss the issue any further with you.

BTW, i am proud of America's support of Israel. That doesn't mean i ignore the Palestinian people's plight either.

Cabby

Staga · « **Reply #22 on:** October 13, 2000, 07:53:00 PM »

I saw once a TV-document about Israel and in that film some Israeli soldiers speaked just like "Hitler-Jugend" 60 years ago. Only difference was they were talking about Arabs. Very sad.

Well maybe that film was produced by "AntiSemitist forces" and was pure propaganda. Propably not.

DmdBT · « **Reply #23 on:** October 13, 2000, 11:59:00 PM »

The attack on the Cole was not necessarily a "cowardly terroristic" attack. Didn't we the almighty US of A send our "cowardly terroristic" bombers over Yemen years back and plaster a factory that we *thought* was manufacturing chemical/biological weapons for terrorists but turned out to be a simple pharmaceutical manufacturer? Who are the real terrorists in that region? Why aren't those bomber crews up on international murder charges? Oh thats right, the US can do no wrong, and if we do we announce to the world our deepest sorrow for the most unfortunate incident and announce sweeping revisions in our intelligence community to prevent such further tragedies. Its amazing that an attack like this can happen and within days or weeks the guilty parties will be ferreted out and targeted for military reprisal but we can do nothing against the domestic terrorism being conducted by the leadership of the various drug cartels safely tucked away in central/south america.

We should change to the United States of Hypocrisy. I love my country, I loathe my government.

T

A slave of the United States Federal Government.

StSanta · « **Reply #24 on:** October 14, 2000, 06:06:00 AM »

Staga:

there is one small difference though. Israel is surrounded by hostile nations who in the past have tried to eradicate Israel from the map. Once, israel attacked in a "preemptive strike", but other than that, it has some nasty neighbors. Not talking about the people but the political environment. Anyone who has been a guest in an Arab home will have learned that they extend the utmost hospitality to their guests. But, they are as extreme when dealing with their enemies.

Me, I support the secular Jews, but not the religious ones. For all I care, they can die in horror just as much as the Muslim extremists. The only thing they add to the situation is grief and pain, using religion as a smoke screen for ignorance and hatred. Interestingly enough, the average secular Israeli family has 2 kids, whereas the average orthodox (fancy name for fanatic) breeds like rabbits. So soon, Israel will be a theocracy and not a democracy if this continues.

Personally, I think Israel has showed great restraint - it has fired upon mobs (of the same kind that killed the ISraeli soldiers) and unfortunately killed a lot of people. But, the killing has been unintentional. And the way the choppers were employed clearly showed that it was not an "all out war against the Palestinian people". Believe me; the Israelis are bad mofo's in terms of military potential and could easily send the Palestinians back to the stone age or make the area glow after a few nukes.

On the other hand, their general handling of the Palestinians during the last few decades have been totally unacceptable. These people don't see a way out, and rightly so are upset about it.

One must also ask oneself what the hell all those kids are doing throwing rocks and beign part of a mob? I you can't stand the heat, get outta the kitchen - actions HAVE consequences and risks, in this case deadly. If you go skydiving and die, don't blame the ground for smashing you. If you throw rocks at a defense force known to respond harshly, don't be suprised when they do.

Not saying it is RIGHT, it probably ain't, but anyone with some BRAINS can figure this one out. Throw rock, they shoot, they might hit you, you might die. Right or wrong. Now, do I throw a rock or not? Individual decision.

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StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"

Toad · « **Reply #25 on:** October 14, 2000, 09:32:00 AM »

Santa, I do believe there is a "conservative" streak in you.

Hamish · « **Reply #26 on:** October 14, 2000, 12:55:00 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by DmdBT:
The attack on the Cole was not necessarily a "cowardly terroristic" attack. Didn't we the almighty US of A send our "cowardly terroristic" bombers over Yemen years back and plaster a factory that we *thought* was manufacturing chemical/biological weapons for terrorists but turned out to be a simple pharmaceutical manufacturer? Who are the real terrorists in that region? Why aren't those bomber crews up on international murder charges? Oh thats right, the US can do no wrong, and if we do we announce to the world our deepest sorrow for the most unfortunate incident and announce sweeping revisions in our intelligence community to prevent such further tragedies. Its amazing that an attack like this can happen and within days or weeks the guilty parties will be ferreted out and targeted for military reprisal but we can do nothing against the domestic terrorism being conducted by the leadership of the various drug cartels safely tucked away in central/south america.

We should change to the United States of Hypocrisy. I love my country, I loathe my government.

T

A slave of the United States Federal Government.

/rant on

If you think those bomber crews that were following orders should be up on murder charges, you have some severe problems bud. Do you think those crews have the ability to say, "well, i don't really think it's a chemical weapons plant so i won't bomb it" ? Have you ever been in a mission briefing before a tactical strike? Do you think they are even told what they are bombing? An order like that would have come from the top, and like the good soldiers they were, they followed orders. With the information they had, they had no MORAL ground to disobey. If they HAD disobeyed, thier careers would have been over and they would probably be summarily dismissed from service. The armed forces that complete those missions have enough to deal with without people like you saying they ought to be on trial for murder for doing thier jobs. If INTEL was wrong, then INTEL is where the problem needs to be fixed. If you don't agree with it, write a letter to your congressman. I hope you don't believe that the sailors who died on the U.S.S. Cole deserved to because we may have made a mistake a few years back trying to prevent chemical weapons from being manufactured. If you do, Go talk to thier families and explain it to them.

/rant off

Sean "Hamish" Webber
U.S. Navy, Active Duty

Gunthr · « **Reply #27 on:** October 14, 2000, 03:48:00 PM »

Well said Hammish. <S>

DmdBT, you've thrown out the baby with the bath water. And with all due respect, you are teetering on the brink of hypocracy yourself if you dont soon get off the government teat and find a different job. Or at least stop talking about the United States of America as if you were an "American Satan" hating middle eastern fanatic.

Replicant · « **Reply #28 on:** October 14, 2000, 07:19:00 PM »

What a complete mess. It would be very dangerous to get involved in this at all and there is no easy answer.

What was the name of the 1918 mandate (equivilent to NATO WWI terms against the Turks) that put Britain in Palestine to try and keep the peace and break up the Turk Empire? (France was given mandate of Syria & ???) I know Britain pulled out in 1948 with all the terrorist uprising and since then Israel have held off all neighbouring Arab countries - Jordan, Egypt, Syria, Palestine etc.

Do Turkey still have any influence over what was the Ottoman (spelling??) Empire? Should NATO (NATO replaced earlier WWI equivilent) get involved since it is related to terms given in the First World War?

What can be done?

Regards

'Nexx'

[This message has been edited by Replicant (edited 10-14-2000).]

StSanta · « **Reply #29 on:** October 14, 2000, 07:25:00 PM »

LOL Toad, so there is hope still?

------------------
StSanta
9./JG 54 "Grünherz"