Author Topic: Middle East Conflict  (Read 2058 times)

Offline Eagler

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Middle East Conflict
« on: October 13, 2000, 06:36:00 AM »
Heck of a day yesterday....
 Looks like we may be in for something here. Last time the US backed Israel whole hearted in Israeli-Palestinian conflict, the Arab countries united against us and gave us the gas shortage of '73. With oil at record highs, looks like we are headed that way again. Both candidates stating during the last debate that they were pro Israeli (both shooting for the Jewish vote) didn't help the situation but as it stands now, the terrorist attack on the USS Cole was premeditated and planned out in advance. I think Clinton created more harm than good with his so called peace talks. IMO, he doesn't have the depth of understanding of the conflict there and was only trying to create another "legacy". Clinton said the Israeli-Palestinian conflict ``is one of the greatest tragedies and most difficult problems of our time. But it can be solved.'' Why does he feel the US has to solve the world's problems? I get the feeling they like to fight over there. What else do they have to do?? What else do they know? They have an AK-47 thrust into their hands by the time they are in grade school and taught to be martyrs. Strap a bomb on your butt, jump into a crowded bus and go to Allah... Those screens with the soldiers getting beat turned my stomach. I think the Israelis retribution was restrained given the fact they notified the complexes before they were bombed to minimize injuries. What about the media making a big deal about Gore’s VP choice, Lieberman, being Jewish? I don’t think that did anything but stir it up more. Just heard they bombed the British Embassy in Yemen. Maybe if the US throws enough $$ Arafats way, he speak out and try to do something. I just wonder how much control he really has over “his people”.  I can remember when he was nothing more than a terrorist himself. Now he’s considered a world leader... Thoughts, comments??

Eagler
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Offline Maniac

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« Reply #1 on: October 13, 2000, 06:47:00 AM »
This is not an easy one.

I have decided not to take _any_ side in this conflict.



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Offline StSanta

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« Reply #2 on: October 13, 2000, 07:48:00 AM »
Well, FWIW, I think Clinton did a good job in the Middle East. Must be very frustrating to see years of hard work go down the drain.

The US has interests in the region, and also a quite potent Jewish minority at home, so I don't think isolationism is possible. At the same time there is a growing Arab minority as well.

CNN refused to show the pictures of what happened at the police station. An Italian station did air it though; bodies thrown out of windows, dragged around, one set on fire.

Then again, the Palestinian police apparently did what they could to protect the Israelis from the mob, but were overwhelmed.

With the opposition he has in Israel, Barak has only one choice if he wants to survive politically - the normal Israeli one, i.e retaliation. Palestinian officials know this as well as anyone. The mob might not have, but the fact remains that official Palestine radio stations have incited the crowds. Mob violence was just a question of time.

Still, all is not lost. The Israeli attacks were very limited, and it strikes me as odd as Arafat and other Palestinian leadres describe them as "all out war against the defenseless Palestinan people".

This time, I fear, the Palestinians took too big a bite, and forced the Israelis to respond. And unfortunately, all goodwill is lost now. Israel states that Arafat has the power to call a stop to the violence any seconand this I believe is simplistic and untrue. He has some control, but far from full control. The Palestinians say that they'll keep fighting til all Israeli troops leave the area - and they won't, since the Iraelis want the violence to stop before doing so. A Gordian knot of the serious kind.

The cowardly strike on a US ship and the bombing of the British ambassady are probably related - extremists trying to pour fuel on the fire. But, US interests is at stake, and once again I don't think isolationism will solve the problem - the US consumes vast quantities of oil and therefore the Middle East is of immediate strategic interest. That's probably why Clinton thinks the US has an interest in the area.

Yes, Arafat going from terrorist to freedom fighter was an interesting development. Just like with Barak, he too has opposition in his ranks. This damned question is so hard to deal with because of these extremists in both camps - common sense is ruled out, compromises hard to get and so forth.

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Offline Suave1

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« Reply #3 on: October 13, 2000, 08:02:00 AM »
Arafat just doesn't know how to take yes for an answer. Isrealis really bent over backward trying to negotiate with the palestinians. The deep down truth of the matter is Palestinians won't be happy untill Isreal disappears. They don't want coexistance . Now Arafat is gonna go back and preach the lie that they can purge the holy land of jews by means other than negotiation. Well what we are seeing now is the alternative to negotiation, which is what he chose over peacefull coexistance.

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #4 on: October 13, 2000, 08:02:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by StSanta:
Well, FWIW, I think Clinton did a good job in the Middle East. Must be very frustrating to see years of hard work go down the drain.


You mean months, don't you?  Have  you forgotten that  Clinton revived the 'peace plan' in order to establish his ego-needing 'legacy'?  It was at best a weak attempt on his part to get the two sides talking again.


Offline Naso

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« Reply #5 on: October 13, 2000, 08:51:00 AM »
Ok, i know i will be burned as witch, but i have to spend few words on this question.

I think this is not an easy one, this will be one of the conflicts more hard to solve in the actual world's situation.

First of all we (western countrys) have a biased view of the question, for an old and a new reasons.

The old one is the heritage of long century of antisemitism in Europe, culminated in the holocaust, and ALL cultures in Euro (and someway in US too) feel guilty of it and have a biased perception of the Israeli state.
We have the tendence to forgive some expantionism and some nationalism (sionism in this case) expecially of the extreme right of the Israeli politic, because we are afraid to be accused to be antisemith.

The new reason is a simple one, the palestinians made a big mistake to use terrorism to defend their reasons, and Killing innocents is not tollerable by any means.

This had produced in our vision (pheraps too black and white) the feeling of a bad people when thinking of palestinians.

About the terroristic past of Arafat, dont forget Moshe dayan and Rabin himself, they were terrorists at theyr times.

What is happening now is the bad think, the extremists of both sides have stepped in and pushed out the moderates, and this will be completely destructive for the slow and very difficult process to find a solution.

The point is, IMHO, here nobody is right and nobody is wrong, both parts are guilty of some bad thinks, and both parts are victims.

Sadly, at the end who pay is always the innocent, like some poor Israelian killed in a bus, or some poor palestinian child killed in a road.  

Two child fighting in an alley, you really care who started?
Or your wish is first to stop the fight?

Offline Staga

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« Reply #6 on: October 13, 2000, 09:33:00 AM »
Both sides are getting what they asked for.
Also it looks like Palestinians have better armament than in days of Intifada. IMHO Israel is still occupying parts of Lebanon and Syria and in that case it's only reasonable if PLO and Hamas are trying to assure Israel to back off from ground they dont own.
They could solve this conflict peacefully but both sides still have some "warlords" and as long as these guys are in power theres no hope about lasting peace.
If they only could keep religion out of policy....

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #7 on: October 13, 2000, 09:39:00 AM »
A very, very complicated situation indeed...

The BBC and independant news services did not show explicitly the killing of the soldiers. They did show a shot looking into the police station window (after the mob had climbed in). I'm always more disturbed by implied violence, rather than explicit... the flailing arms and movement in the window was more than enough for me.

Its a shame we need oil from the mid-East, otherwise we could wash our hands of the whole region, like Africa. At least that's how the politicians would like it.

I haven't got answer for the situation as a whole, but the Israeli opposition must bear some of the responsibility for this latest crisis.

I think Clinton's efforts in the peace process have been very commendable. He got further with the process than anybody else and he recognises that stability in the Mid. East means stability in oil prices (a neccesity for the Western world).
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Igloo

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Middle East Conflict
« Reply #8 on: October 13, 2000, 10:14:00 AM »
Both Isreal and Palestine have to step up to the plate here and be the leader.  

How can you say Clinton made things worse with Camp David? Israel and Palestine had never been so close to peace.  No other president has came so close.  So your republizised statement that Clinton made things worse cannot be supported.

Why should the US take part in the peace process?  Because the US is a part of the world, like it or not.  Every country on the earth has the resonsibility to keep peace.  Your little slot of land is no more important than Israel's or Palestines.  Your lives are no more important than the lives being lost overseas.  Every other country in the U.N. proudly reaches out to the world in times of need.  Leave it up to you to say "no, we don't wanna help, it's your problem".

Eagler, how can you say that they want to fight over there?  Have you ever been there? I have.  This war has been going on since 1948 (actually, long before that), it is a lot more complicated than them being angry at each other and throwing rocks.  What a plainly stupid comment regarding their upbringing.  That is so wrong and you've obviously allowed yourself to be brainwashed by the western sterotype of the Arabic people.

Arabs are among some of the nicest and well reserved people on earth.  They are also some of the most passionate.  "They", as you say, are not brought up to carry AK-47s, strap a bomb to thier chest and cry Allah.  What a distasteful and plainly uneducated comment.  I can tell you've never been there.  Did you watch James Bond for your education or something? Geez.

Both sides are at fault here.  The Palestianians were very wrong murdering those soilders and those individuals should be held accountable.  You also cannot forget the fact that over 100 Palestianians have died through out these past 2 weeks from Israeli gunfire.  Many of those deaths were childern under the age of 15!  

What I am worried about is the possible action being taken by the neighbouring Arab countries. Syria, Lebennon, Egypt, Iraq.  These countries are no pushovers, especially Egypt.  Hopefully it wont come to this.

And I am going to Egypt again in March.  

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Offline -lynx-

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« Reply #9 on: October 13, 2000, 10:31:00 AM »
If I've read this correctly - USS Cole bombing was planned months in advance - I think it's way too much of a coincidence with the very recent upsurge in violence.

Peace in the Middle East? Hmmm... With Arab children being brought up brainwahsed into Israel as a source of all evil, with most religious leaders trigger-happy to call for a Jihad against all non-believers? Hmmmm...

 
Quote
Both sides are at fault here. The Palestianians were very wrong murdering those soilders and those individuals should be held accountable. You also cannot forget the fact that over 100 Palestianians have died through out these past 2 weeks from Israeli gunfire. Many of those deaths were childern under the age of 15!

Oh please... You make it look like bad Israely soldiers attacked a school bus or something. It is the same mob that stormed that police station, threw rocks and missiles etc, right? I'm surprised that number of deaths is as low as it is after all that was happening there. Keep in mind that Israely army is probably the most combat ready army in the world, armed to the teeth with first rate infantry weaponry, tanks, planes - you name it. It's exceptionally well trained and ready to defend their own motherland.

55 years ago the Jews decided that their nation needed that thing - the motherland - after thousands of years of persecution by just about every nation. They got there, they settled and tough luck to those who happened to occupy the same piece of land - wrong place, wrong time. The fought for their right to be there - agains many other armies at the time and they are there to stay. I'm not saying it's a right or wrong way of doing things - one just needs to finally accept that they are there and deal with the new situation like normal people do.

(p.s. Israel is by no means whiter than white but their army has somehow been managing a very restrained response to all provocations so far)

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[This message has been edited by -lynx- (edited 10-13-2000).]

Igloo

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Middle East Conflict
« Reply #10 on: October 13, 2000, 10:37:00 AM »
"With Arab children being brought up brainwahsed into Israel as a source of all evil"

That's a pretty hefty generlization. And it's wrong.

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Offline Naso

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« Reply #11 on: October 13, 2000, 10:39:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by -lynx-:
(p.s. Israel is by no means whiter than white but their army is somehow managing a very restrained response to all provocations so far)


hundred people killed is "restrained response" ?

LOL

Nuk'em !!!!

 

Igloo

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Middle East Conflict
« Reply #12 on: October 13, 2000, 10:50:00 AM »
This is not what I wanted to see:
 http://www.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/10/13/mideast.violence.04/index.html

Click on the video of protests in Cairo, Egypt.

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Offline -lynx-

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« Reply #13 on: October 13, 2000, 11:08:00 AM »
Naso -

a. it's not funny;
b. it is a restrained response if you take into account that it is well armed/trained infantry being pelted with stones. One magazine emptied into that crowd could have left dozens dead. It (thank God) has not happened yet.

igloo -

I know how you view this kind of things - read enough of your posts and arguments. I respect your views but do not agree with them. Is that OK?

Have a nice weekennd everyone!

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Offline Naso

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« Reply #14 on: October 13, 2000, 12:36:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by -lynx-:
Naso -

a. it's not funny;
b. it is a restrained response if you take into account that it is well armed/trained infantry being pelted with stones. One magazine emptied into that crowd could have left dozens dead. It (thank God) has not happened yet.

Have a nice weekennd everyone!


Ok, i was provoking hardly, but...

It happened.
They emptied some magazine into the crowd.
They launch rockets from heli.

And, as i recall, the well armed/trained army were supposed to leave the zone one year ago.

Maybe i am naive, but i simpatize with unarmed people vs. a well armed/trained occupation army, even if they launch stones.

Maybe some racial memories at work in this.  

Have a nice weekend you too (you dont participate the scenario?).

Sad is the fact someone, for human stupidity, will not have a nice weekend.

I still have in my eyes the kid dying in his father's hand.

I hope for you, you will be always on the rear side of a well trained/armed army.

The front side is'nt funny.