CH vs Cougar vs Saitek X52 (X45)

[Mustaine]

Originally posted by DonULFonso
Actually, neither Thrustmaster's F-16 FLCS or F-22 Pro or their successor, Guillemot's HOTAS Cougar, nor CH Products' Fighterstick or Combatstick are "too big" - it's rather that Saitek's X36, X-45 and X-52, just as Logitech's sticks or Microsoft's Sidewinders, are kind of "too small":

The "real deal", the F-16's flight-stick - of which said Thrustmaster's high-end controllers are replicas, and after which CH Products' controllers are modelled (though not exactly copied), too -, has been designed that way on purpose:

• Usually, your hand rests on the plate at the base of these sticks, in which position you can easily access all buttons and coolie-hats except the two controls at the uppermost top of the stick: the POV-coolie and the thumb-button; this position is called the "low grip".
  
• To operate any of these two controls at the uppermost top of the stick - the POV-coolie and the thumb-button -, you are supposed to lift your hand a bit so that your thumb can reach these controls; this position is called the "high grip".

This is the way this stick has been designed to be used in real life, and the USAF has spent a lot of time and money to develop this design.

Many high-end flightsticks follow this design, but most low- and middle-class joysticks don't: they are smaller than "serious" flightsticks, and hence you don't need to change your grip. If you're new to flight-simulations you might like it this way; if you're coming from full-sized replicas it can be irritating, to say the least - I for one find Saitek's HOTAS-sticks too small for my own taste. I can fully understand anyone who prefers smaller stick where you don't need to change grips - but to call full-sized replicas "too big" just proves a lack of info on the purpose of their design: they are not "too big", they only are meant to be used using two different "grips". If you don't like this concept, then this can be a valid point (for you, personally), but not understanding this concept cannot be a valid point, IMHO.

Anyway, back on topic: In our virtual life of playing flight-simulations on the computer, the coolie-hat on top of our sticks usually is pre-configured to act as POV-coolie so that we can look around. Since this is an essential function, the need to change into the "high grip" with "serious" flightsticks (as opposed to the usual "arcade" joysticks) quite often in fact can be annoying. Those who are using a head-tracker (be it hardware such as the TrackIR or software such as "Cam2Pan" to use a web-cam to control the view) don't have this issue, those who don't have one do.

However, no one forces anyone to really use the POV-coolie as POV-coolie: when Microsoft defined "hat 1" to be the POV-coolie, a single coolie-hat already was a luxury; today, all of the controllers mentioned above feature more than just a single coolie-hat, and their throttles usually feature further additional coolie-hats, too. All of the controllers mentioned above allow you to set up and use any of the avaliable coolie-hats as POV-coolie (as long as it operates 8-way, or at least 4-way with corners, that is)! Personally, I, too, always preferred to use an 8-way coolie-hat on my throttle instead of on my stick as POV-coolie, since this way I don't have to change into the less comfortable "high grip" to start with, and I can use any of the stick's coolie-hats at the same time, while panning my view around. [/B]

if that is truly the case, why? i get cramps and pains in my thumb from having to make the abnormal positioned stretch to reach the hat.

honestly, i have short fingers compared to many of my friends, and i don't think it is meant to be physically uncomfortable to use the hat on the CH stick. why would someone design it that way?

don't get me wrong, i use it to fly, it is a great stick, and i just live with the cramps and pain because there is nothing else out there of that quality to use that fits my hand. heck even the x45 top most hat was a tough reach for my thumb.

[Reschke]

I have said it before many times. PERSONAL PREFERENCE IS THE KEY! If you can try them all then do so; then YOU can make an informed decision and take all these opinions into account. I have the Cougar and have had every thing CH has put out and all but the newest Saitek and have stuck with my Cougar. One potentiometer problem in the throttle due to a screwed up flashing of the firmware and minimal "slop" (maybe 2 mm now instead of the 1mm out of the box) after three plus years of hard use. Yes I am now going to upgrade the insides of the Cougar but only because I can afford it. I have a second one sitting in a box waiting on the future.

[DonULFonso]

Mustaine, you can't get cramps if you use it properly, i.e. lift your hand when you stretch your thumb - if you don't lift it (or don't lift it properly) you get cramps, sure.

Reschke, you're absolutely right: if ever possible, (try to) try them out - however, the times when you could see them in the shelves seem to have long gone, unfortunately.

And like I said: a controller is more than just the hardware itself.

The design of the HOTAS Cougar is unequalled by any other brand's stuff - it just feels as if it was a natural part of your hands. But its quality is a two-sided coin: it's made of metal, yes, and the long travel of its coolie-hats and the longer throw of its buttons is something you have to feel to believe it - but the gimbals more often than not have center-play, and they wear off too soon, and the stock springs are ridiculously stiff. Last but not least, the support provided by Guillemot doesn't really deserve that name, unfortunately - there's absolutely no communication with their customers, and updates take an eternity, without any guarantee that they'll ever be released until they happen to be released.

The CHs OTOH work flawlessly straight out of the box, without any need for replacements or mods due to high-quality internals - but while their coolie-hats and buttons are of a good quality, they just don't feel that good as the HOTAS Cougar's. CH Products' support however is next to none, and so is their communication with their customers.

I for one wouldn't wanna miss any of my sticks - I love my HOTAS Cougar's ergonomics (read: it doesn't just look good, it feels good) and capabilities, and I love my CHs' softer feeling (read: better fine-control) and capabilities (there are some things my HOTAS Cougar will never learn, unfortunately). I couldn't say one would be better - I only could give you my personal opinion which one is better in which field and for what type of games, for instance.

[Pongo]

CH,
Unless you want to be a joystick hobbist instead of a flight sim hobbist
Had em all.

[Stone]

Thank you all for the replys.

I try to figure out what to do lol.

I dont think I will be able to actualy see the sticks anywhere before I buy

It will probobly be CH, as I am hoples in fixing things. Very good a breaking tho...

Thx again

[GunnerCAF]

On a HOTAS stick, you can program any button to do anything.  I use a lower hat for views, and the upper hats for things I use less frequently.



Stone, the CH is a good choice.

Gunner

[Mustaine]

Originally posted by DonULFonso
Mustaine, you can't get cramps if you use it properly, i.e. lift your hand when you stretch your thumb - if you don't lift it (or don't lift it properly) you get cramps, sure.

i give up. you just don't get some people have smaller fingers.

lifting my hand to the top of the stick so my palm COVERS the lower hat allows me to comfortablly reach the top view hat. it also does NOT let me hold the stick, as now i have nothing to hold on to. my trigger finger and middle finger are both on the trigger, so they can not grip, my palm has to be lifted off the stick as to not activate the lower hat, so all i have is my ring and pinky fingers to move the stick.


my whole point of explaining this was to let the perspective buyer know. you come along like the designer saying "no you just aren't holding it right" not even thinking about the difference in hand sizes. i have short stubby fingers and the top of the CH fighterstick is not designed for people with smaller hands. that is the end of it.

[Reschke]

CH hand mod as explained to me by another CH user with "small hands".

Go to your local hardware store and buy a long length of foam pipe covering insulation. Cut a piece approximately 1 inch wide off and wrap it around the bottom of your Flightstick where your hand rests currently. If necessary use electrical tape to hald it in place. Repeat as needed. Apparently it works like a charm and adds some cushion to the hand rest.

[Bronk]

I don't know why everyone dissmissing the X-52.  Lots a buttons , all programable. I believe the stick has no pots that can go bad.  Plus the the stick is adjustable for smaller hands. Dont get me wrong its not CH but it is much cheaper.  
I compare it to my old sidewinder PP2. Has the same feel but with a longer throw.
For the money the X-52 is hard to beat especialy when paired with old gamport ch peds (cheap can be found for about $25).



Bronk

[Brenjen]

I have an X-52 i bought around christmas. I like it except for three things:

#1 - I have big hands & the second trigger hits my pinkie so I cant wrap my hand around it the way I would like. It's minor & I just killed the pinkie trigger in the profiler so I din't hit it on accident. Now it does nothing & I can press it down on accident without doing something I didn't mean to. But it's a switch/button I can't use that I paid for.

#2 - When I try to EASE the stick into fine corrections it has a *plastic on plastic* rubbing that hangs or catches & that makes it jump (fine aiming adjustments on someones 6 is difficult). I have tried lithium grease & an electronics lubricant from my dads TV service days & it hasn't helped. Of course I haven't taken it apart either, if I did that I'm sure I could correct it.

#3 - It has developed a slight "drift" when pressed forward. When I am in a tank & I pan up or down & I don't take special care to be sure it returns to center I notice it slowly panning by itself.

 If I had it to do over again I'd probably go CH; a few of my squaddies have CH gear & have nothing but good to say about it.

[DonULFonso]

Sorry, Mustaine, I didn't know your hands are really that small. Bear with me, I didn't mean to offend you - my apologies if I should have come across like this!

You know, I've just seen more than enough mates complain about "too small hands" before - and each and every time it turned out they simply didn't know they were supposed to simply change the grip. Most of these guys had hands of the same size as mine, some had smaller hands. Even the 12yo old brother of my son's best friend is (more or less) able to use my stick this way - it looks not really right, yet, but it did the trick. It looks like he's shaking hands with the stick, with the thumb resting on the POV-coolie, the index finger on the trigger, the middle finger's top just touching the stick's front right under the trigger, and the other side of the stick held by the fold/bend (sorry, English is not my native tongue) between his index finger and thumb - it is possible, for him. Needless to mention that his hand doesn't rest on anything in this high grip - but neither does mine, since it's not supposed to rest anywhere.

I really didn't know your hands are that small, please excuse me if I should have come across as trying to lecture you.

[Geeb 2]

Hey thanx don i might just have to dig out my CH again & follow your inst:)
Presenly using saitek cyborg stik cus i thought my hands were small:)

[airspro]

Link to a cheap CH "fix"

Worked for me .

My "wish" was that CH would make the 586 USB Combat stick with 2 8 way hats , that way I could use the lower left one for views . It fits me perfect , but as of now it's only a DAMN 4 WAY HAT .

Come on CH , get with it Just one more 8 way hat and I wouldn't ever look at another stick ever


Ya I had a Cougar , sent it back , even with lighter springs I didn't like the way it felt at the center . One on the fourm said it right , try "drawing" a circle with it , compared to other sticks . My shooting was not to hot with a Cougar .

I like the X-36 but the dumb hats were out fast for me , and the new ones I don't care for with that "spring" loaded center . Not good for fine adjustments IMO . At least for me .

[Brooke]

I've owned several CH Products sticks and pedals, and I like them very much.

[GunnerCAF]

Originally posted by airspro
My "wish" was that CH would make the 586 USB Combat stick with 2 8 way hats , that way I could use the lower left one for views . It fits me perfect , but as of now it's only a DAMN 4 WAY HAT .

Come on CH , get with it Just one more 8 way hat and I wouldn't ever look at another stick ever


Ya I had a Cougar , sent it back , even with lighter springs I didn't like the way it felt at the center . One on the fourm said it right , try "drawing" a circle with it , compared to other sticks . My shooting was not to hot with a Cougar .

 [/B]

I think a dremel and a little grinder will make an 8 way out of a 4 way in a flash.  The only difference is a little plastic under the hat.

The Cougar has a lot of settings that can be tweeked.  You can customize the axis profile for each axis.  On the stock Cougar, remove the deadband and you can do some good circles on the analizer.  And the analizer is quite percise, with the ability to draw a line, so any twitch of your hand will register.

It is too bad most people can't put their hands on the stick before they buy them.  Each one has a different feel, and everyone has a different preference in what they are looking for.

Gunner