England and crime

[Angus]

No matter how many these threads are, the UK has a loooong way to go to approach the capital crime rate (murder, rape, armed robbery) of the USA.

[Jackal1]

Originally posted by Nashwan

Guns used to be legally available before the first world war, but they were expensive. Therefore hard to get for criminals.

The restrictions on legal ownership since then have restricted supply, which has pushed the price of guns up. That means guns are hard to get for criminals.
 

The career criminal doesn`t go down to Harry`s gun shop to acquire a gun.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

just people getting PO'd and civil disobediance till the government pandered or died.

So what you're saying in effect is that you want a 3rd world form of government with inherent instability and tendency to revolt.

Why do you live in the western world to begin with?

[Angus]

Here's two Birmingham's and their rates...and the countermeasures....
http://www.bbc.co.uk/insideout/westmidlands/series5/gun_crime_states.shtml

[Angus]

And this one:

http://newswww.bbc.net.uk/1/hi/uk/810522.stm

"Home Office figures showed the murder rate in the US in 1998 was 6.3 per 100,000 people compared with 1.4 per 100,000 in England and Wales.

The murder rate in London is 2.9 per 100,000 compared with 8.6 per 100,000 in New York and 49.15 per 100,000 in Washington DC.

A report produced by the US Department of Justice in 1998 would appear to support the Home Office's claims.

It shows the murder rate was 5.7 times higher in the US than England and Wales and the rape rate was about three times higher.



Figures show people are much more likely to get shot in New York than London
 
The report also showed firearms were used in 68% of murders in the US compared with 7% in England and Wales, and in 41% of robberies in America against 5% in England and Wales.

But the rates for assault, burglary and motor vehicle theft were all lower in America than in England and Wales"



So...give them all guns, and your car will be safer while you and yer kids won't....

[Nashwan]

The career criminal doesn`t go down to Harry`s gun shop to acquire a gun.

No, they normally steal them, or buy them off someone who has stolen them. That's why they are so cheap, like other stolen goods they sell for a discount from retail price.

Of course, with at least 103 million weapons in the hands of American citizens it's not hard to steal a gun. They're left in cars, in drawers, under beds, on top of wardrobes, etc.

In Britain, where do you go to steal a handgun? They're not sold in the shops, so you can't steal one from there. Only a tiny number are in private hands, so you'll have to committ thousands of burglaries before you find one, and even then it will, by law, be locked in a very secure safe. Where do you steal a handgun?

[Nashwan]

Wrong. The power of the military is the soldier. Infantry. Boots on the ground. You can't subdue a populace, control territory, consolidate, operate without troops on the ground. Those troops are armed. With automatic assault rifles.

And when they encounter opposition, they call in real firepower.

What happened at Waco? A tank, wasn't it?

"The right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed."

How do you define "arms"? Don't "arms" include fully auto weapons? Weren't certaing "arms", that looked a bit too frightening, banned for a few years? What's to stop that happening again?

[lazs2]

this is kinda silly... The world is full of examples of indiginous peoples fighting off extremely well equiped and modern armies...

You could raid armories...you could get help from border countries wanting a piece of the pie for whatever reason.... Hell... a couple dozen irish guys kept the whole british army hoping for decades..  

We beat the british army.

They can't sent the tanks everywhere... the Soviets couldn't win in afgahanistan with tanks... and... Are you really sure that the government here could raise an army to fight citizens?

I don't think you know us Americans... we aren't like you... that much should be apparent... the why I could never explain to you because frankly.... I don't understand you people.

Nashwan... some good books to read are "more guns less crime" by Lott and Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz studies.  Lotts studies explain the relationship between concealed carry laws and crime.  The Getz study deals with guns and prevention of crime

All three of these authors are former anti gun guns.   The getz  and Kleck study shows that a minumum of 700,000 to 2 million crimes are prevented every year here with firearms... they estimate as high as 400,000 people a year are saved because of fiorearms.

You never had a high homicide rate any time in the last century... your gun laws did nothing and at one time...you had a fairly high incidence of gun ownership...

You gave up your rights for nothing... you have not improved things a bit.

We have not become more violent as we become better armed...our crime is falling rapidly.  

There is no point that we can look at an America that was not armed and say... it was better or worse but... we can look at the places that pass concealled carry (right to carry) laws and see a decline in violent crime.

I really would suggest that you read Lotts book... It is highly footnoted and with hundreds upon hundreds of footnotes all torn apart by the people such as the brady bunch and soros and UN commitees.... only one or two of the more unimportant facts have been shown to not have enough backing to be correct... one very minor study cited did not exist.

You can also go to the NRA ILA site and read up on crime.

The guns aren't going to go away...  normal gun owners are not the problem they are a solution... the best efforts would be directed at allowing citizens to go armed and to punish those who would use firearms for crime... to add penalties to gun crime.

best of both worlds.. the just being armed and the unjust afraid to arm.

england proves that getting rid of guns doesn't change the homicide rate of a country..

We have no evidence that our homicide rate would decline if there were no guns at all in this country... Most believe it would probly go up.  I think at the very minimum..  more of the right people would die at the hands of more of the wrong ones.

for sure here... a lot of badguys are dieing at the hands of the good guys... or... allmost as good....bad guys killed at the hands of other bad guys...how is it in england?  who is killed there?  bad guys or good guys?

lazs

[Curval]

Originally posted by lazs2
Nashwan... some good books to read are "more guns less crime" by Lott and Gary Kleck and Marc Gertz studies.  Lotts studies explain the relationship between concealed carry laws and crime.  The Getz study deals with guns and prevention of crime

An interesting read on how Lott is wrong

[lazs2]

and nashwan... you are correct our gun rights are being infringed... I am sure that makes you very happy... until 1934 tho.. we could own full auto weapons without a licence... we still can with a licence..you have no doubt seen the full auto meets we have here?

you could also get 20 mm anti tank (would work great on hellicopters) guns until 1968 for a couple hundred bucks   there are thousands of em still around.

I think that a ban like they have done in your country would cause civil disobedience at the very least and possibly touch off an overthrow of the government that suggested it.

A likely scenario would be widespread rioting witn the government cracking down and then rioting by Americans who resented the heavy handed government tactics...  likely and impeachment would happen with the new regiem promising to get rid of all the unconstitutional laws passed by the former and then everyone would go home and back to normal.


I think most look at armed conflict as some sort of revolution that is organized with armies and battles and rounding up bad guys with the support of the populace... more like SWAT being called and then blown to bits in an ambush.   people being assaisnated and...

well... like Iraq but with a hell of a lot more of the population behind it.

I don't really see this happening tho...  I really see that 90 million gun owners and 60% of the population supporting the second will make gun laws see saw back and forth...the latest supreme court justices appointed will affect gun laws and second amendment rights for many decades.

lazs

[lazs2]

curval..  I have read that... it says that Lotts numbers are correct but that the author doesn't believe that crooks knowing that a portion of the population is carrying concealled firearms has no affect on how they act.   That is of course silly..

The author does not distinguish bettween the impact of concealled carry and the purchase of fireams... How much difference would it make if I bought one more gun to keep at the house?  How much different would it be if I got a permit and carried one of the dozen or so I allready own concealled?

did you not see that reading what he wrote?  it is not the amount of guns.... America is buying guns at the same rate per capita but.... it is the amount that are being carried...   If this were not true then crooks would not care if you told them the area was full of plain clothes security.

lazs

[x0847Marine]

So...give them all guns, and your car will be safer while you and yer kids won't....

I've had a CCW since I was 21, my cars, girlfriends, and now my family are all much safer because of it.

Rather than call 911 and get a recording, or wait for LAPD to get around to stopping by.. we are well protected thank you.

The trick here, and this is deep, is not to give everyone a gun... thats stupid, but theres no reason a responsible US citizen shouldnt be able to carry a gun to protect themselves because the government is inept at doing so, and has NO legal obligation to do so.

BTW, in California carrying a double edged knife, no matter what length, is a FELONY (12020 PC), carrying a gun (12031PC), a misdemanor.

If you're in Cali, carry if you want... if you legally defend youself you're looking at a fine up to $500.

The best way to do this in your car:
Place your weapon in a "seperate locked box", or brief case. Keep it open when you drive, shut it if you get stopped. It would take a search warrant to search your brief case, unless you let them... even if they tow you car for some reason, you can walk away with your briefcase and gun.

Even if I didnt have a CCW, I'd carry anyway.. a $500 fine is well worth my personal security.

[MrRiplEy[H]]

So in effect lazs your only need for guns is your anti-government paranoia and private preparation for a civil war.

[lazs2]

No ripley... I like em... they are fun and a good tool.

They are living history.

They are some of the most artistic and well made things on the planet.

They are a challenge to get good with.

They are fun to work on.

reloading and balistics is a challenging and rewarding science.

I have defended my family with one before.

They are the best tool for the job in many cases.

They cut crime.

They influence government.

it is fun to meet and shoot with like minded gun aficianados and historians.

They provide a good basis for family together time at the range or plinking or hunting or maintenance.

so no.... you are wrong.

lazs

[Sparks]

In Britain, where do you go to steal a handgun? They're not sold in the shops, so you can't steal one from there. Only a tiny number are in private hands, so you'll have to committ thousands of burglaries before you find one, and even then it will, by law, be locked in a very secure safe. Where do you steal a handgun?

Hand guns in the UK don't come from stolen sources and never have - here is the UK NCIS (National Criminal Intelligence service) UK threat asessment showning where illegal weapons come from :-Report in PDF format - big

A few notable points .....

7.1 There is a lack of consistent data and limited
intelligence about criminal possession and use of firearms
in the UK, and therefore the scale of the threat is not
clear. The wide disparity in previous estimates of the
number of illegally held firearms, ranging from 200,000
to 4 million (both figures having been quoted in
submissions to the Home Affairs Select Committee in
1996) serves to illustrate the problem. In response, in
2004, the Association of Chief Police Officers, supported
by the Home Office and NCIS, took steps to standardise
data and intelligence recording procedures across law
enforcement.

While the scale of illegal possession may be difficult
to estimate, the indications are that sufficient numbers of
firearms or potential firearms (those capable of
reactivation or conversion) are in circulation in the UK,
and readily available, to supply the current level of
criminal demand.

I also have a problem with this report - It is 90% cut and paste from the 2003 report and so to me would suggest the "intelligence" part of it may be somewhat ot of date .........

As far as gun availabilty is concerned - shipping via major parcel companies or personal carry via the RO-RO ferries and Chunnel I would say is virtually risk free.  I have been through Harwich in my car nearly 20 times and never been stopped let alone searched. Many times the customs hall is not even manned.