Squad Operations broke 250 players

[daddog]

That was a first for us last Friday night.

I want to thank all the old squads for sticking with an event that is not always perfect. I also want to thank all the newer squads for giving it a try.    And all the past and present CM's that have made it work.
------------------------
CO daddog
Squad Operations
332nd Flying Mongrels
332nd Roster
Special Events
Noses in the wind since 1997.
daddog@hitechcreations.com

Our obligations to our country never cease but with our lives.
John Adams, 1808

[96Delta]

Congrats dadog!
Its always good to see your efforts bearing forth fruit!

I got a quick question now:

We are committed to 11-15 players.
I want some clarification on this.  Does that number apply
just to pilots?

What we want to do is this. Once we meet our committment
quota, we would like to bring on more players to act strictly
in the gunner-observer role.  They would not be pilots,
only dedicated gunners.

After all, that would be far more realistic than being blind
and unarmed as we calibrate to drop on our targets.

I want to make sure that this is okay in case you see someting
like 22 players assigned to LCA when our quota is just 11-15.
I'm not even sure that we can muster that kind of interest
in the gunner-observer role but before we go recruiting we want
to be sure we are allowed to do this.

Thanks!  

[daddog]

When a squad commits to their numbers
4-6
7-10
11-15
16-20 and so forth we allow squads to have up to 2 under and 2 over their limit.
So actually squads have a range of:
2-8
5-12
9-17
14-22 etc before they would incur any penalties for their side.
Most will agree this is a pretty broad range. Consequently we are hard line about this. As it is we still have a hard time balancing numbers at times because some months you might have squads on the low end of their numbers and others on the high end.

I realize this did not really answer your question, but I wanted to point that out first. A squad that say had a range of 11-15 would not be allowed to have more than 17 pilots because the CM would have to verify the numbers of not only that squad, but every squad to make sure they were gunners or observers. I am of course assuming that other squads might go over their numbers and the CM would have to verify they are not flying, but gunning or observing. This would be impossible without an exact roster, (of squad call signs) and yet even with an exact roster of squad call signs it is totally impractical for a CM to use the CM eye buzzing around checking to make sure guys are not flying, but being gunners or observers. It would be very difficult to confirm and verify every Friday night.

CM’s avoid like the plague rules or situations we
-   Can’t enforce easily
-   Can’t verify easily
-   Would increase the workload of the Setup CM or the Admin CM

Allowing squads to go over or under two pilots gives squad C.O.’s and X.O.’s quite a range to play with, but it is a range they have to stay within irregardless of what the extra pilots are doing.

Don't forget you can change your numbers every tour (every 3 weeks).  If you think you will be low, then step down, if higher, then step up a range.

[daddog]

I should mention, (and this something APDrone mentioned in the CM forum) that if you do have too many pilots show up, they could fly with another squad that is below their limit. The down side is they would not get to fly with their squadies (1/2 the fun IMHO) and they would have to change uniform. Exit your squad, get invited to another squad, except a temporary invite from another squad, exit the arena, and then come back in for it to show they were flying with another squad.

CM's will not care.  As long as everyone is within their numbers we don't care who flys with who.

[96Delta]

Wouldn't looking at the logs under LCA be an
easy way to see if anyone violated the hard limit
on pilots and instead of gunning, upped a plane instead?

If done when points are calculated violators could be easily
penalized.  Why not add a new penalty policy for dedicated
gunners who violate such a rule?  Say, deduct 100 points or
something for any and every violation?

And, to make it easier for the CM to police the event as it
is developing and under way, how about  we make
up two squads:

Loose Cannons - for the Pilots

Loose Cannons Gunners - stricty for the gunners.

I'm just trying to make the bomber role more realistic
and keep people intersted in flying them by giving
BUFs a defensive chance when in the bombsight.
I can share with you that a few of our members were
more than a bit angry after Frame 1...not about being
shot down, but about being defenseless.

On Frame 1 we were just sitting ducks when we started
to calibrate which is just about when the enemy arrived.
It pretty frustrating that you have to do the job of
every crew member and not terribly realistic.  Certainly
not very historical.

Not having a dedicated gunner allows players to "game" the
event by exploiting the inherent weakness of the game structure
by attacking when the bombers are on their final bomb runs.
Everyone knows that the BUFs can't defend themselves in those
circumstances making them easy prey.  I don't think that anyone
"gamed" the event last night by timing their attacks to exploit
that problem (I think the timing of our meeting was just bad luck for us)
but the vulnerability is there.

Having gunners makes the game more of a realistic simulation
for the BUF drivers....and for the Fighters as well.

I know you guys are as aware of the problems with bombing as
I am.  I'm just suggesting something that might make them
more fun and historically accurate. Losing 13/17 because
we couldn't defend ourselves isn't much fun to many of our players.  
If we had a fighting chance at defending ourselves and then
getting our butts kicked that would be one thing.  But having
no chance because of how AH is designed is quite another.

I viewed the film I made of the game and took 100 screen
caps (gonna make a flash slide show with about 25 of them).
While looking at them I couldn't help but notice that something
was missing....I saw all kinds of tracers from the attacking planes,
hardly any from the bombers.  To me that says something needs to be
looked at.

If realism is wanted, then creating guidelines & rules that allow for
the addition of dedicated gunners is one sure way to raise the
bar and create a more historically accurate and immersive
experience for all participants.

Just my 2-cents guys.  Personally, I have fun either way although
it does get frustrating at times.  My concern is how many
guys I can keep interested in the bomber role when all that
happens is that we get slaughtered because we can't defend
oursleves.  That makes upping bombers a hard sell, ya know?

I wonder what the Ju-88 pilots from Frame 1 think about this idea?

David "96Delta"

[daddog]

Loose Cannons - for the Pilots

Loose Cannons Gunners - stricty for the gunners.

Interesting idea. This was actually bunted about in the first year of Squad Ops. I am trying to remember but there was a squad or two that wanted to have a squad of just gunners. I don’t remember exactly why we ended up not going that route. It was about 4 years ago and the CM tools we had were a lot more limited. Even the logs did not provide the information they do now.

I personally don’t think I would be against it, but there would be issues to deal with and questions to answer. There would be Squad Ops they would not have a role in. For example the last one that Nefarious ran did not have any gun positions for a squad in that role. Would they just sit it out? Does the LCA want to be assigned buffs every time? I did not know if you guys were a dedicated buff squad. If so that would give good impetus for you wanting a dedicated gunner squad. I know I would want one. Would this gunner squad be held to the same rules as other squads? Yes they should IMHO, but then if we have a Squad Ops without gunners and they don’t show up what do we do?

I know many squads can relate to trying to drop and getting hit by enemy fighters at the same time. It is frustrating when that happens in Squad Ops.

It will be up to Nef and Falcon, but I kinda like the idea so long as we work out the details.

[Nefarious]

We are currently discussing this and will come to a decision before this coming Friday.

[daddog]

[96Delta]

Thanks for considering it guys.  Thats really what I was
hoping for.  Whatever you decide, its okay by me.

The LCA isn't a dedicated BUF squad.  We just fly whatever
is needed to accomplish a given mission but when its BUFs we
want a chance of getting the mission done, as does everyone
who flies them.

There would be hurdles of course.
Here's what we were planning to try if we were permitted to do so.

First off, the way I envision it the dedicated gunners wouldn't be
something that would be for every event or be a standing squad for
that matter, they would have to be recruited and thrown into hastily
formed "Gunner Squads" before the event.  Gunner squads would have
to be deactivated and disolved for each frame to keep it workable I think.

The new squads could be formatted like this:

Squad Name "Gunners"
or
Squad Name "Crew"

So if the the 56th FG were in bombers their gunner squad would be
"56th FG Gunners".

About 15 or 20 minutes minutes before the game started we would send
the XO to the MA to recruit players from our squad or perhaps from
others in the MA who wanted to participate strictly as gunners.   We would
also let our members know about a week earlier that if they were interested
in serving in that limited role that they should be waiting in the MA
or in the SEA before the event.  Once we had the pilots assembled and
in uniform, we could add the Gunners to the mix by getting them into
uniform and assigning them to individual pilots.

There would be no reason for dedicated gunners to know the Operations
Order because they would only be passengers.  That would allow this last
minute staffing to occur. Of course, under this model, no gunner
commitment could be made as there would be no way of knowing how
many would be interested until the night of the Frame.

If a squad assigned to run a BUF mission couldn't find any gunners then
they would go as is.  BUT, the defending fighters would have no way of
knowing if bombers had gunners or not and that would surely temper
their approach and tactics, yielding some of the benefits of having
gunners even if they didn't.

So, attacking fighters would never know which plane, if any, had any
dedicated gunners.  That should heighten their aderenaline and immersion
factor as they begin an attack on a BUF.

Another consequence of allowing dedicated gunners might be to increase
players awareness and participation in FSO events.  By getting guys into
the arena, albeit just as gunners, you expose them to the fun of the events.
 
That could lead to greater levels of participation in an aircraft role.
If some of the players we recruited for that role were from other squads, I
would expect that more squads would like to participate in aircraft piloting
roles as well..  Heck, as I type this I can't help but wonder if the LTARs
wouldn't be interested in acting strictly as gunner-observers.
I got dibs on them and 999000!

Of course, implementing this would be accompanied by some teething
pains as players applied and learned the new rules and procedures...
but it could be fun.  I know that it would create an added burden
on COs as they try to assemble, uniform and assign gunners
to pilots but if might be doable if they were ready to go through
the effort.  In the end though, putting gunners into a squad's planes
would be entirely optional for squad COs.  Think of the gunners as 'live'
ordnance.

All that said, you guys have tons more experience with FSO's and the
game in general so I'm interested in hearing if you think the idea is
workable or not. Thanks for giving the proposal a hearing.

David

[daddog]

Just a quick reply. You may not know that when anyone is shot down they can be a gunner for anyone on their side.  Just a tip that has helped out my squad in buff runs before. I am sure it will help your guys too next time.

I sure appreciate your willingness to work with us. They are still going over it in the CM forum.

[tedrbr]

I am not familiar with the administration options for the FSO, so I do not know what is and is not possible, or how it effects the logs and scoring.  And I definately understand the need to keep administrative overhead at a minimum.

Can squads be created that cannot lift ANY planes, thus limiting them to just gunner/observer roles?  Either a squad associated directly with another squad of pilots, or simply a pool for those that are curious, observers, or want to gun?  Up to pilots to recruit from this pool.  Might be a way to increase interest in FSO for some people, but also there's the possibility of people hanging out there that do not get picked up.

From the log, it is possible for gunner observers to join fighters as well?

Of course, there is the problem of having an CO and XO of managing such a squad, but overall, it would be less important than squads lifting planes.

96Delta has a point of the vulnerability of buffs on the bomb run that they "normally" would not have.  In MA it is less an issue, you usually only deal with 1 or 2 at a time, and can request gunners from the whole arena.  Here, a defended target can have 20 to 30 fighters over it.  Squad members shot down may be available for gunners, but usually pilot is too busy to issue the invite at that time.

Just some thoughts.

[forHIM]

The current tools do not allow for the non-flight status of certain squads.  So anybody in the arena can lift off.  We do have tools to disable flight for all countries and re-enable it at certain bases.  But once enabled at a base its available to any player at that base.

A player can join a fighter.  They can only observe and act as a second set of eyes, but cannot fire any guns.

Depending on the frame, some squads get shot down very early and are available to help gun for bombers well before they are engaged.  Other times, the escorts and defense players stay up and are not available.  It's part of the FSO setup.

[daddog]

Good post/questions tedrbr. forHIM pretty much answered it.

96Delta has a point of the vulnerability of buffs on the bomb run that they "normally" would not have. In MA it is less an issue, you usually only deal with 1 or 2 at a time, and can request gunners from the whole arena.

He sure does and is not the first to bring it up. In Squad Ops you might be surprised how easy it is to get some gunners when you request them. The trick would be if you are a squad that is in buffs, you don't want to be the first in the action, that way you can get gunners before you are over your target or being attacked.

[Nefarious]

96Delta,

Once again thanks for your interest in FSO, Your ideas certainly have merit, But for now we will continue to use gunners as we always have.

Every registered pilot needs to fly an airplane. Usually if you need a gunner you just have to ask and someone will respond. In fact most people who get shot down early usually ask on country channel if anybody needs a gunner.

So to answer your original question, No, Sorry. The Standard way of dealing with extra players is to ask other squads who are short if they need pilots. Most squads will agree and take as many as they can be allowed.

The next time your squad flys Bombers, always be on the look out for downed pilots or anybody thats looking to grab a gunners spot. Also remind your squaddies that as soon as theyve died or landed and towered, they can join as a gunner.

Remember that when a Frame CO sees your expected numbers, he will expect you to have that many pilots or something similar. Please do not divide your numbers into gunners, because it could cause confusion when a CO expected X number of Buffs, and you only gave half of X, because the other half is manning gunners posistions.

Like I said, Gunners squads or something similar might be something to look into for the future. But for now, we will continue to use gunners as we always have.

Thanks,

[Nifty]

Well, if you always have guys who just want to be gunners, then why not just up your committment and take off with the bare minimum of that commitment minus 2 (so you don't get in trouble for not fielding enough planes) and have the guys who want to be gunners be gunners?  That way, you play within the rules set forth and accomplish your goal of having dedicated gunners.  

In those frames where you are assigned fighters, your gunner guys can gun for another squad, or they can fly fighters.   Everyone plays, everyone has fun, and everyone obeys the rules (and the CMs don't have to scour the logs and count take offs.  Believe me... it ain't fun looking at those logs for stuff like that with all the re-ups that occur in the first 15 minutes of the frame.)