Author Topic: Oil Change Instructions for Women and Men (Read 2446 times)

Morpheus · « **Reply #90 on:** May 05, 2006, 06:40:24 AM »

See Rule #4

Jackal1 · « **Reply #91 on:** May 05, 2006, 06:41:02 AM »

Google`s lights just flickered.

Should have used a break in oil the first 500 to 1000, dumped it and went with permanent after that. If it was using oil after that and it were mine I`d be concerned. Of course I`m not big into depending on canned instructions and suggestions. I pretty well go with common sense.
Bought a new Cummins once and it was using oil after what I considered reasonable break in. Kept a log of oil usage for a few trips and back to the dealer we went. Cummins had changed from their normal supplier to a German company for their piston rings that year. Of course they didn`t tell you that , it wasn`t mentioned in the manual, nor did they tell you that they were experiencing problems with them. You more or less knew there was a prob on your own or went with the oil usage.
I demanded that it be set straight. The dealer balked, but when I contacted Cummins they more than readily agreed to take care of it and were more than a little upset with their dealer.
I left it with the dealer and went fishing while the work was being done. Funny thing was that when I went to pick it up the dealer had a prepared bill for the oil and filter. Not a small bill for a 400. I went to the head man and told him to stuff his bill for that and that it had oil and a new filter in it when I brought it in. Problem solved, no bill.

beet1e · « **Reply #92 on:** May 05, 2006, 09:37:19 AM »

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Originally posted by Jackal1
Should have used a break in oil the first 500 to 1000, dumped it and went with permanent after that.

Nope. Euro engines used to need a "break in" oil, but no longer. The last car I had that needed that was a 1982 Ford. I had a couple of Toyotas in the late 80s/early 90s. Can't remember if they used a "break in" oil. I don't think they did. There used to be an initial 1000 mile service on cars here at which point they'd change the oil - get rid of the "break in" oil and put in "normal" oil. That's no longer the case.

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Of course I`m not big into depending on canned instructions and suggestions. I pretty well go with common sense.

I can't see how it's possible to improve on common sense by doing something other than what the vehicle's own maker recommends. I think someone would look silly walking into a vehicle "dealership", and telling them that the service recommendation for their own cars was bollocks.

Cummins diesel? Hey! There's an outside chance that the 64ft boat I'll sail on in August will have a Cummins engine. But it's more likely to be a Lister (specialist in marine diesel) or possibly a Perkins. Is Cummins American?

Hehe, I had a minor disagreement with a newbie service agent at VW a few years ago. I took the car in for service at ~13,000 miles, and this kid said I should have brought it in at 10,000, and suggested that I might have voided the warranty. I said I'd done exactly what the handbook said, and acted in accordance with the service indicator on the dash. A more senior service agent took over, explained that there were two service schedules and that I'd been put on the wrong one! All sorted out, warranty intact.

Ripsnort · « **Reply #93 on:** May 05, 2006, 09:58:45 AM »

If your engine burns oil in the first 50,000 miles, you didn't break your engine in properly. Letting the piston rings seat properly by varying speed and not exceeding manufacturer recommended rpm during break in cycle is important during the first 1,000 miles. Happy to say my BMW has never burned a drop. When I do an oil change after 8-10k miles, I get back exactly what I put into it.

beet1e · « **Reply #94 on:** May 05, 2006, 10:21:54 AM »

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Originally posted by Ripsnort
If your engine burns oil in the first 50,000 miles, you didn't break your engine in properly. Letting the piston rings seat properly by varying speed and not exceeding manufacturer recommended rpm during break in cycle is important during the first 1,000 miles.

Not quite. As you say, in the first few thousand miles, the rings won't have seated properly - and therefore oil can get past. If my engine had not been broken in properly, it would have continued to burn oil - beyond the initial period of ~10,000 miles. It didn't.

Furthermore, I have never had engine problems in any of the cars I've owned in the past 25 years.

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When I do an oil change after 8-10k miles, I get back exactly what I put into it.

I always remember a guy crowing to this effect in one of the motoring journals. The editor's response was something like "if your engine oil is coming out nice and clean, it probably means that it's leaving your engine nice and dirty!"

mora · « **Reply #95 on:** May 05, 2006, 10:58:08 AM »

"Break in oil" was a 60's thing... Some racing engine builders still use it and some don't.

Modern cars don't need a break in oil, or even a break in many case(according to manufacturers), but I guess it doesn't hurt. Why is there less need for a brek in these days? It's because of smaller manufacturing tolerances and better materials.

Some examples of identical engines use more oil than others, but this isn't usually due to a lack off break in. The engine in question might have just happened to get a piston(s) and/or rings on the low side of the tolerances, and cylinder(s) on the high side by a pure coincidence. To avoid liability the manufacturers specify a maximum allowable oil consumption of 1l/1000km, but I'd say anything above 0.3l/1000km on the long run is abnormal.

beet1e · « **Reply #96 on:** May 05, 2006, 12:58:41 PM »

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Originally posted by mora
"Break in oil" was a 60's thing...

Mora - a lot of these guys drive vehicles which employ 60s technology, and don't understand modern cars or oils. That's why they still think that cars need an oil change every 5000 miles, and still think a "break in" oil is needed. Best we give them a chance to catch up to modern times. They'll get it eventually!

Ripsnort · « **Reply #97 on:** May 05, 2006, 01:32:12 PM »

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Originally posted by mora
"Break in oil" was a 60's thing... Some racing engine builders still use it and some don't.

Modern cars don't need a break in oil, or even a break in many case(according to manufacturers), but I guess it doesn't hurt. Why is there less need for a brek in these days? It's because of smaller manufacturing tolerances and better materials.

Some examples of identical engines use more oil than others, but this isn't usually due to a lack off break in. The engine in question might have just happened to get a piston(s) and/or rings on the low side of the tolerances, and cylinder(s) on the high side by a pure coincidence. To avoid liability the manufacturers specify a maximum allowable oil consumption of 1l/1000km, but I'd say anything above 0.3l/1000km on the long run is abnormal.

Mora, you're totally misinformed. Please show me facts and data that break in is no longer needed.

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ost manufacturers have recommendations in the handbooks.

Basically you start off treating the engine very gently i.e. gentle revs and never more than 1/4 throttle. Over time you gradually use more revs and more throttle until you eventually end up using the full range of the engine. It is important to eventually end up using all the power and rev range to wear harden various parts. It is also important that you do not keep to a single continuous speed or gear but vary your speed quite a bit during this time (a long highway journey is NOT a good break in if you just sit in top gear at a continuous speed). This is because things are still hardening up and you can wear a groove into them.

Modern engines break in relatively quickly, often 1000km, older designs took longer as the tolerances were not as precise. The first oil change is often a lot sooner than later ones as during break in rough edges from manufacturing will be worn off and end up in the oil.

Here is more advice from other FAQ Farmers:

* Drive it gently. general rule is not to exceed 3000 - 3500 rpm. for the first 500 miles. It is also a good idea to be kind to it for the first 2000 miles.

* Rule #1 if you want your engine to last a long time, treat it gentle all the time, not just for the first 1000km.

* Break in is important. All engine bearings and cylinders, etc. must wear evenly and proper. Also, piston rings need to seat. Have you ever seen a new engine burn oil until it breaks in? Some piston ring take up to 5000 miles to fully seat or wear evenly to cylinder bore. Not following proper break in proceders could result in premature engine/parts failure.

* This depends whether you purchase or lease a car. With a purchase you should break a car in for the reasons and using the methods described before, ignoring the one comment about it being bull****. If the vehicle is a lease you may skip the break-in period if you so wish. Since not breaking-in a car may result in improper wear of parts, or even engine failure, during the warranty period it will be covered, and a leased car will be returned to the dealer before the warranty period expires.

* You shouldn't just break-in your car if you are buying it. Even if you are leasing it you should. Do the next guy a favor. A very inconsiderate answer man. Besides some people lease it and then decide they like it and want to buy it, so I say, you should break it in anyway. No matter what.

beet1e · « **Reply #98 on:** May 05, 2006, 01:55:15 PM »

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Originally posted by Ripsnort
Mora, you're totally misinformed. Please show me facts and data that break in is no longer needed.

He didn't say that. He said that a break in oil is a thing of the past. Having said that, I can tell you that the VW Beetle handbook for the old air cooled engines gave NO break-in recommendations. The engine was ready to be abused from Day1.

I still say that the manufacturer's handbook overrides any of these dubious nuggets of advice seen on a BBS, or heard in a bar - especially if it's after 10pm.

As for your quoted advice...

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Basically you start off treating the engine very gently i.e. gentle revs and never more than 1/4 throttle.

Do you know anything about light aircraft engines, Rip? The advice you gave here is the absolute worst thing you could possibly do to an aircraft engine during its break-in period. (I'll explain later if there's sufficient interest, but be warned - it might be after 10pm and I'll have been to the pub LOL.) My point is that different engines need different treatment. Just because an American V8 designed in the 1960s needs an oil change every 5000 miles, it doesn't follow that a modern engine needs the same. One size does not fit all.

Skuzzy · « **Reply #99 on:** May 05, 2006, 02:18:33 PM »

And yet, both Volvo and Lexus (possibly more, but I only have direct access to those two makes owners manuals) still recommend oil changes every 5,000 miles. Neither of which uses an American engine.

It appears a reason for this is the emissions systems in the cars sold here.

Curious, outside of the U.S., what type of federal (or whatever your countries governing law makers is called) laws are there regarding emidsions systems in cars? I am not talking about the actual requirement levels, but the service levels.

Do other countries require the manufacturer to warranty emissions controls beyond the normal warranty? There are many cases where the U.S. federal courts have forced car manufacturers to repair the emissions controls on vehicles for periods up to 14 years and up to 150,000 miles.

Are there similar things, like this, happening in the rest of the world? Just curious.

lazs2 · « **Reply #100 on:** May 05, 2006, 03:05:55 PM »

beet... we are talking about 3 entirely different mechanical situations (four if you count direct injection skuzzy) here and...

That may be the confusion.... diesel motors are different service and break in than air cooled gas engines than are water coooled gas engines.

lazs

Skuzzy · « **Reply #101 on:** May 05, 2006, 03:24:05 PM »

Wait a minute,...beet's car is a diesel? Well sheez,...that makes a ton of difference. All my owner's manuals quotes are for gasoline engines. Diesel and gasoline engines have very different service intervals.

I did find out why Lexus does not want you to use synthetic oils. There is a common molecule in all synthetics, which is highly corrosive to certain materials. The tip of the injectors in the direct injection fuel system is subject to being corroded by that molecule.
Apparently the injector tips have a high content of carbon (probably to withstand the constant exposure to burning fuel vapor), which is something synthetics will dissolve.

beet1e · « **Reply #102 on:** May 05, 2006, 03:51:10 PM »

skuzzy - here's a link to the Volvo service schedule for cars with petrol engines: http://www.volvocars.co.uk/VolvoOwnership/VolvoService/_Service+Interval+Summary+Petrol.htm As you will see, for most models it's a 12,500 miles or in some cases 18000 mile service interval.

There's another one for diesel. Gotta run - meeting a friend for a beer. Back later - I won't have too many.

Skuzzy · « **Reply #103 on:** May 05, 2006, 03:55:00 PM »

Must be emission related then as the manaufacturer's service interval is based on them changing the oil.

straffo · « **Reply #104 on:** May 05, 2006, 03:57:42 PM »

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Originally posted by Skuzzy
I see one really big difference straffo. The IS250 CO2 emissions are very different.

Translated to pounds/mile, yours is 0.759 pounds/mile.

The IS250 sold here is rated at (must be below this to pass state inspection) 0.565 pounds/mile.

Did you get the figures for the 4WD or 2WD version? CO2 emissions are higher for the 4WD version (true of most 4WD cars).

I've been unable to find if it was for a 2WD or 4WD (btw I think the 4WD is not availlable here)