Author Topic: Why Were The Allies So Successful  (Read 11462 times)

Offline HoHun

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Re: Re: Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #30 on: May 03, 2006, 03:36:32 PM »
Hi again,

>I have very little Aces High experience, but as Bruno pointed out ...

Apologies to Bronk who actually made the comment I meant to refer to!

I'm struck with a memory that remembers initial capitals only :-/

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Bruno

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Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #31 on: May 03, 2006, 03:59:00 PM »
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The Russians had already turned the tide long before the UK & US bombing campaigns were having a significant effect on the German economy.


I think that a lot of folks need to be reminder of this fact.

As you also said the full mobiliztion of the German economy wasn't achieved until it was far too late. There was simply very little planned in terms of a pro-longed war. When the German's failed to defeat the Soviets by '41 (early '42 at the lastest) the gig was up.

Offline Hawco

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Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #32 on: May 03, 2006, 03:59:07 PM »
Russian Blood and American Money won the war.....

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #33 on: May 03, 2006, 04:04:20 PM »
That's too simplistic...

 A lot of folks bled and a lot of nations spent their wealth, some went bankrupt, to defeat Hitler.

Offline Kweassa

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Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #34 on: May 03, 2006, 04:15:23 PM »
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You can also turn this around a bit. Had England sued for peace in 1940, then the entire might of the German and Italian armies would probably have been enough to go the extra few miles to Moscow, thus dooming the Soviet Union. But the threat of invasion held German divisions in France, and the desert campaign tied down some German and most Italian forces.


 True to an extent I guess. However just what kind of impact the fall of Moscow would have had could be subject to debate. The Soviets had already evacuated and totally rebuilt most of its political/economical functions out of Germany's reach, which ultimately led to the critical reorganization of the Soviet military and the decisive counter attack. It would have had a tremendous political impact for sure, but whether that alone would be enough to signal the total downfall of the Soviet war machine is contestable IMO.

 Besides, the halt in German advancement into Russia had less to do with the overall numbers concerning military resources, than the conditions surrounding the levels of preparation and strategical decision. By the looks of the first two years it seems that by on a tactical scale the "80%" was already more than enough to topple the Soviet Union into its final demise. However, in the end, the USSR survived it all, which sort of leads to the doubt that it wasn't exactly the lack of available manpower or resources that led to the German failure in conquering the USSR in under a year. In other words, my guess is whether Germany put "80%" or "100%" against the USSR, they'd never have achieved their final destination.


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The Soviets would have been doomed anyway had it not been for the barbaric racial policies of the facist occupation. Stalin was none too popular, and the Germans were initially greeted at liberators. But, it became clear shortly thereafter that the Germans were starving Russian POWs if not executing them outright. Thus, the Red Army was galvinized by the knowledge that if they succeeded, there would be a chance to survive Stalin's barbarity -- if they lost, there was no chance of survival at all.

 
 IMO that's a slightly warped picture of what was happening after the German occupation of Soviet territories. It is true that the USSR had inherent political problems in maintaining the state as a "Union" of multiple nationalities, with most of such problems coming from the very earliest days after the Revolution of 1917. However in the Russian sense, regardless of what kind of ruthless dictator Stalin proved to be to our own eyes after all these years, whether by propaganda or patriotic fervor, Stalin still remained as the savior to the USSR  to the public eye in those days. In other words he was immensely popular - in the darkest hours of the USSR he was the only person on the media to address to the public in the name of 'Mother Russia' and reassure them that the country will not fail. The Soviet people answered to the call - whether by patriotism or by sheer state terror, they did.

 Therefore, it is true that the German advancement did lead to a considerate number of Soviet turncoats and revolts against local Soviet occupation in the areas with highest frustration levels against the USSR, but overall most of the people of the Soviet Union were fully intent to stand against the German invaders. As much as it is silly to believe that the USSR was mobilized into action by voluntary efforts alone without any kind of state terror involved, it is also wrong to believe that state terror alone was able to hold the USSR together. In short most of these guys knew it would be a take-no-prisoners, battle-to-the-death, type of war, and they accepted it as their own fight to be fought out. Like you've mentioned, Hitler's "wipe out the degenerate Slavs" attitude did not help either.

 There are multiple questions concerning just how the USSR maintained its solidarity throughout the war, but nonetheless, one thing for certain is that it wasn't going to break-up so easily, just giving up their posts and going turncoat. They weren't the French! :D

Offline Mister Fork

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Re: not really...
« Reply #35 on: May 03, 2006, 04:34:51 PM »
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Originally posted by joeblogs
The Russians had already turned the tide long before the UK & US bombing campaigns were having a significant effect on the German economy.  

-blogs
Actually, it was because OF the Allies bombing the German industries impacted Germany's ability to fight a two front war.  The soviets just reaped the benifits. :)
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Offline Hap

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Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #36 on: May 03, 2006, 04:42:17 PM »
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Originally posted by mipoikel
- War economy
- Axis couldnt bomb US factories
- Hitlers stupidity
- Lots of friends = many fronts


mipoikel got it right.  it what little reading i've done, japan knew they could fight for about 10 months before eating up resources, ones they didn't have on hand to replace.

and germany's story was not much different.  after summer of 1940 the luftwaffe was trumped.  

and what enemy did germany face that was remotely comparable to britian?

this is just from memory and i'm going to try to name them in order and i know i'll make mistakes . . .

1) annexed austria
2) lol (can't recollect but i want to say czechoslovakia)
2a or 3b yugoslavia
3) poland
4) low countries
5) france
6) STYMIED in England
7) russia

was not france the only surprise?  really?  

also someone with a better memory plug in the scandinavian countries in order . . . was it after the russian offensive.

the tragic element for me in ww2 was both germany and japan were defeated early on (in that they could not win) yet they continued to fight with great loss of life.

hap

Offline Oldman731

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Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2006, 08:59:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa
However just what kind of impact the fall of Moscow would have had could be subject to debate.  

Agreed.  The Nazi generals after the war tried to make it seem like some sort of football game - cross the line, take Moscow, the referee would blow his whistle, and the war would be over.  So close, so close, that madman Hitler screwed us when we were on the verge of victory.

I've never, ever, seen any plausible argument as to just why the capture of Moscow would have ended the war.

- oldman (who agrees that after June 22, 1941 the Germans should have just saved the Earth a lot of trouble and surrendered to someone, anyone).

Offline Pongo

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Re: Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #38 on: May 03, 2006, 09:15:14 PM »
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Originally posted by LEDPIG
Simple question why were the allies so successful in ww2, was it better planes, better pilots, training etc? How were they able to win over such maneaverable and light airplanes. We all see how tactics are important in fighting dissamiliar aircraft, was it that? Anyone have any idea of how the actual planes such as P-38 and P-47 were actually employed against there much lighter and more maneaverable opponents? Do you think the combat in AH falls somewhere along the lines of real life in how we dogfight and use our simulated planes and environment. What are the political, tactical, or any other factors that caused the allies to win as to how the air war fit into the big picture?


none of the above, straight numbers.
Given historical planes if the numbers were reversed the result would have been reversed.
And germans would be on here saying that the RAF pilot with 352 kills was lying.

Offline Pongo

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Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #39 on: May 03, 2006, 09:18:08 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Oldman731
Agreed.  The Nazi generals after the war tried to make it seem like some sort of football game - cross the line, take Moscow, the referee would blow his whistle, and the war would be over.  So close, so close, that madman Hitler screwed us when we were on the verge of victory.

I've never, ever, seen any plausible argument as to just why the capture of Moscow would have ended the war.

- oldman (who agrees that after June 22, 1941 the Germans should have just saved the Earth a lot of trouble and surrendered to someone, anyone).


Losing Moscow wouldnt have ended the war, it would have ended the war the germans were interested in. Its easy to say the goverment moved and factories moved. But the transportation center didnt move. The north south and east west rail ways and roads went through moscow. I think they would have pretty much cut off even leningrad by taking moscow.

Offline LEDPIG

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Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #40 on: May 03, 2006, 09:41:45 PM »
All you guys are making some interesting points, i agree i love these lively debates also:aok
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Offline Raptor

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Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #41 on: May 03, 2006, 09:49:12 PM »
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Originally posted by Speed55
When the Japanese bombed pearl harbor they woke "The Sleeping Giant", and essentially seeled the fate of the war. If that had never happened, and the United States let the war play out without military involvement, i guarantee all of europe would be speaking german right now.

US/German ships were already engaged in the Atlantic when FDR told US merchant ships/escorts to "fire on sight" of German vessels. It was only a matter of time before US/Germany went to all out war.

Offline E25280

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Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #42 on: May 03, 2006, 09:58:18 PM »
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Originally posted by Pongo
Losing Moscow wouldnt have ended the war, it would have ended the war the germans were interested in. Its easy to say the goverment moved and factories moved. But the transportation center didnt move. The north south and east west rail ways and roads went through moscow. I think they would have pretty much cut off even leningrad by taking moscow.
Just came back on, and Pongo beat me to the punch . . . Moscow was the heart of the transportation network, the logistical nerve center of a very centralized system.  Add to that fact that Stalin issued something akin to a "no retreat" order, and at least claimed he himself would not budge from Moscow, and most of the people responsible for the logistics of the country would have been surrounded and captured/killed as well.  This would have crippled the Soviets if not completely knocked them out of the war.

As for Stalin rallying the people, yes, he did that . . . eventually.  Initially (for two weeks, IIRC) he basically sat in a stupor in his Dacha, apparently fully expecting someone to come put a bullet in him and take over.  But his earlier purges must have worked, as there was no leader willing/able to do the deed.

Since we are dealing with a lot of "what ifs" (which, granted, at the end of the day are mostly worthless), let us consider Japan acting as an Axis ally and launching an attack into Siberia in 1941.  Many accounts of the war consider the Siberians to have saved the day with their arrival in the west just before winter.  If this transfer of men and material from the Manchurian-Soviet border made the difference, then offsetting it either by a Japanese incursion or, as in my original point, more men and material on the European Axis side could have won the Soviet war for the Axis.

At least these are my humble opinions.  As I have said, I always love hearing everyone elses.  Thanks, all, for the interesting reads!  
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Offline joeblogs

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Re: Re: not really...
« Reply #43 on: May 03, 2006, 10:13:54 PM »
The Russiams won on account of their own blood. The bombing campaign from the west assured there could be no change in the direction after December 1942.

-Blogs


Quote
Originally posted by Mister Fork
Actually, it was because OF the Allies bombing the German industries impacted Germany's ability to fight a two front war.  The soviets just reaped the benifits. :)

Offline joeblogs

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Re: Re: not really...
« Reply #44 on: May 03, 2006, 10:17:38 PM »
That has been said more than once here in this thread I respectfully disagree. Read the book.

-Blogs


Quote
Originally posted by Mister Fork
Actually, it was because OF the Allies bombing the German industries impacted Germany's ability to fight a two front war.  The soviets just reaped the benifits. :)
« Last Edit: May 03, 2006, 10:26:10 PM by joeblogs »