Author Topic: Why Were The Allies So Successful  (Read 11461 times)

Offline joeblogs

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 649
history
« Reply #45 on: May 03, 2006, 10:21:42 PM »
More years ago than I care to admit, I wrote a thesis that described what the German General Staff told Hitler: The other side has lost; they should forfeit the game.

Only trouble was that Stalin did not see the game that way, even if Moscow was to be evacuated,

-Blogs


Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
Losing Moscow wouldnt have ended the war, it would have ended the war the germans were interested in. Its easy to say the goverment moved and factories moved. But the transportation center didnt move. The north south and east west rail ways and roads went through moscow. I think they would have pretty much cut off even leningrad by taking moscow.

Offline joeblogs

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 649
road netoworks
« Reply #46 on: May 03, 2006, 10:29:46 PM »
This is all true.

But read Lidell Hart's history of the eastern front - the roads trapped the Germans, not the Russians. Even before the invasion, the Russians were moving their factories back and reorganizing the transportation network. The guys who got caught were the Germans and that was because they did not have enough motorized transport...

-Blogs


Quote
Originally posted by E25280
Just came back on, and Pongo beat me to the punch . . . Moscow was the heart of the transportation network, the logistical nerve center of a very centralized system.  Add to that fact that Stalin issued something akin to a "no retreat" order, and at least claimed he himself would not budge from Moscow, and most of the people responsible for the logistics of the country would have been surrounded and captured/killed as well.  This would have crippled the Soviets if not completely knocked them out of the war.

As for Stalin rallying the people, yes, he did that . . . eventually.  Initially (for two weeks, IIRC) he basically sat in a stupor in his Dacha, apparently fully expecting someone to come put a bullet in him and take over.  But his earlier purges must have worked, as there was no leader willing/able to do the deed.

Since we are dealing with a lot of "what ifs" (which, granted, at the end of the day are mostly worthless), let us consider Japan acting as an Axis ally and launching an attack into Siberia in 1941.  Many accounts of the war consider the Siberians to have saved the day with their arrival in the west just before winter.  If this transfer of men and material from the Manchurian-Soviet border made the difference, then offsetting it either by a Japanese incursion or, as in my original point, more men and material on the European Axis side could have won the Soviet war for the Axis.

At least these are my humble opinions.  As I have said, I always love hearing everyone elses.  Thanks, all, for the interesting reads!  
:aok

Offline E25280

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3475
      • http://125thspartanforums.com
Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #47 on: May 03, 2006, 10:50:38 PM »
By the way, sorry for the hijack, if indeed this qualifies. . .

One thing the Soviets had going for them that no other major power had is that they essentially fought their entire war on one front - granted a large one, but one nonetheless.  Even the Italians had divisions in Russia at the same time they were fighting in North Africa.  

The war in Europe had been over for 3 months before they engaged the Japanese.  Due to the non-aggression pact before that point, the Soviets kept a relatively small, stable force in the east that was not actively draining resources from their fight in the west.

Despite this "advantage" they still came very close to losing.  

If you consider the Axis as a single unit, how many fronts did they have to cover?  Brings to mind one of my favorite lines from a series called "Babylon 5":
Quote
Originally stated by Londo Mulari:
Only an idiot fights a war on two fronts.  Only the heir to the throne of the Kingdom of Idiots fights a war on twelve.
Brauno in a past life, followed by LTARget
SWtarget in current incarnation
Captain and Communications Officer~125th Spartans

"Proudly drawing fire so that my brothers may pass unharmed."

Offline E25280

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3475
      • http://125thspartanforums.com
Re: road netoworks
« Reply #48 on: May 03, 2006, 10:58:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by joeblogs
This is all true.

But read Lidell Hart's history of the eastern front - the roads trapped the Germans, not the Russians. Even before the invasion, the Russians were moving their factories back and reorganizing the transportation network. The guys who got caught were the Germans and that was because they did not have enough motorized transport...

-Blogs
"Trapping the Germans" is not an angle I have looked at, and insofar as the transport network goes, it makes sense.  I still think, though, that "cutting the head off" in Moscow would have been devastating to the Soviets.

I'll look up Lidell Hart next time I have more reading time (too much time spent reading BBs for books. (or flying, for that matter) :lol )  Thanks, Blogs, for the recommendation.:aok
Brauno in a past life, followed by LTARget
SWtarget in current incarnation
Captain and Communications Officer~125th Spartans

"Proudly drawing fire so that my brothers may pass unharmed."

Offline Speed55

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1263
Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #49 on: May 03, 2006, 11:33:45 PM »
I still think that the USA saved europe from certain demise.
Aside from the provisions supplied to England, and the USSR, think of the tremendous battles that took place on the pacific front.
Eliminate the USA from the equation, and Japan would have been able to eventually send support to there allies.
Then consider what's been mentioned about airpower.
Although the lancasters did do damage, they didnt have a never ending supply of them, and think what would have happened if you eliminate the American bombing factions, not to mention wildcats, hellcats, hogs, jugs, mustangs etc. No Patton to help Monty stop Rommel in a country rich with resources.
The germans would have still been able to get supplies to both fronts and things would have been ALOT different.

If you want to take it a step further, imagine if the USA stayed totally out of the war on all levels from the beginning, and pearl harbor never happened?
"The lord loves a hangin', that's why he gave us necks." - Ren & Stimpy

Ingame- Ozone

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #50 on: May 04, 2006, 12:37:38 AM »
Quote
I still think that the USA saved europe from certain demise. Aside from the provisions supplied to England, and the USSR, think of the tremendous battles that took place on the pacific front.


 If the size and scope of the battle equates to its importance, then every WW2 battle performed by every other participants of WW2 is absolutely dwarfed in scale against what the Germans and Russians were doing in the Eastern front between '41 and '44. With a bit of exaggeration, a single day of battle in Stalingrad '42, outdoes the entire Normandy Landing of '44, in the scope of ferocity and viciousness, with each side locked in a catastrophical fight quite uninmaginable to even the most seasoned veterans of the Western Allies.

 Again, I'm not trying to belittle the war effort of the USA in WW2... but just what kind of grave and utmost importance the USSR held in turning the entire tide of war in WW2 still goes way unnoticed, even up to this date when the Cold War has been finished for nearly two decades.


Quote
Eliminate the USA from the equation, and Japan would have been able to eventually send support to there allies.


 I sincerely doubt the possibility of this ever happening. Even before the US entered the war in the Pacific the Japanese advancement was meeting a critical limit due to the lack of manpower, resources, and fore-planning. It is said that the Japanese high command was actually in confusement as to what to do next - since they've already reached South-Eastern Asia much too quickly. Some Japanese strategists suggested sending reinforcement troops across India and Middle East to North Africa, but this idea was quickly rejected as being technically inplausible according to the current state of the Japanese military.

 The entire front was stretched out too thin and signs of problems in maintaining it was becoming more and more clear. It is at this point the US threathened to cut off important strategical resources - which would prove catastrophic for the Japanese in maintaining their already fragile extent of the Empire. That crossed the final line of patience the Japanese held.


Quote
Then consider what's been mentioned about airpower. Although the lancasters did do damage, they didnt have a never ending supply of them, and think what would have happened if you eliminate the American bombing factions, not to mention wildcats, hellcats, hogs, jugs, mustangs etc. No Patton to help Monty stop Rommel in a country rich with resources.
The germans would have still been able to get supplies to both fronts and things would have been ALOT different.


 However, beating down German airpower in the defensive was no picnic either. With the bulk of its military resources allocated in the Eastern front the Luftwaffe was still powerful enough to cause such high loss rates to the US bombing campaigns that the entire daylight bombing raids were halted for a period. The survivability of a bomber crewman was becoming dangerously low for the US and as a result they had to redevise the entire bombing tactics to something that was much safer, with reduced accuracy in bombing compensated only by a massive number of bombs dropped - and despite this threat the German economy was still reaching its peak in production rates well up to 1944. Ofcourse, such production under war pressure would prove ultimately suicidal for a single country's overall economic structure, but the point is they were still making more planes in 1944 when the US was bombing the hell out its industry, than they were in 1941 when they were on the offensive.

 Unending fights in the skies over France and West Germany no doubt cost a certain amount of skilled pilots for the Germans, but in that aspect the fights over Russian soil also caused as much - if not more - losses to the Luftwaffe pool of manpower. Detailed accounts of German aces such as Grislawski describes how the Eastern front in 1943 was nothing like he rememberd in 1941 - he actually suggested his friend from the training camps that he'd make some phone calls to have his friend moved to his own squadron where he could 'protect' him, and ensure his survival for at least 50 missions. Grislawski goes so far as to comment that every single pilot his friend will fly with, will be dead in two weeks, and the only way he could survive was by flying with himself.


Quote
If you want to take it a step further, imagine if the USA stayed totally out of the war on all levels from the beginning, and pearl harbor never happened?


 If the 'all levels' includes aids in the form of economic leases of materials and supplies then I admit that I believe the war might have been victorious for the Germans.

 However, concerning military intervention alone, the WW2 would still have been victorious for the Allies even without the US forces in the ETO or the MTO. Like joeblogs said, the tide of the war was already turned by the Red Army, long before the US landed on Omaha beach. When the US was just beginning the bombing raids on a worthy scale in 1943 the Soviets were on a series of decisive counter attacks in the aftermath of operation Uranos, follwed by Saturn. The German offensive at Kursk, Operation: Zitadel, proved fatal in the bloodiest tank battles in history of mankind and the road to Germany's doors were pried open by the Red Army.

 The Red Army needed no "surprise landings" at an unexpected spot to drive through enemy lands. They met the cream of the Wehrmacht head-on and still smashed through (although not without considerable number of casualties, even after the early years). By 1944, the Red Army proved to be strongest standing army the world has ever known, outperforming every army in the world, in the most advanced mobile infantry tactics which the Germans once boasted they were best at. The survivors of the bloody early years have been toughened to become the most effective and ruthless breed of veteran soldiers, and the terror both from the enemies and from the state has molded the Russian officers and commanders into brilliant tacticians, strategists, and leaders

 Although USSR did not win WW2 single handedly (no country has single handedly wone the WW2), when it comes to determining who was the most decisvie force behind Germany's surrender, I vote for the USSR, hands-down.

Offline hogenbor

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 677
      • http://www.lookupinwonder.nl
Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #51 on: May 04, 2006, 01:47:27 AM »
You know, today it's the 4th of May, the day my country remembers the war victims of WWII.

Anyway, I think that the symplistic statement that America's money and Russian blood won the war, isn't that far from the truth after all.

American equipment was used extensively by all allies, including the USSR, but one has to look at the number of lives lost to see what price the USSR really paid. Annihilation on an incomprehensible scale.

Offline Furball

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15780
Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #52 on: May 04, 2006, 02:07:01 AM »
dont forget... it wasnt just Germany that you are making out to be vs the allies.  

Dark Green: Allies before the attack on Pearl Harbor
Light Green: Allied countries that entered the war after the Japanese attack on Pearl Harbor.
Orange: Axis Powers



Tripartite Pact :-

Hungary
Romania
Slovakia
Bulgaria
Yugoslavia
Independent State of Croatia
Italian Social Republic
Siam

Co-belligerent:-

Finland

Dependent on (or controlled by) the Axis:-

Albania
Austria
Belarusian Central Rada
Belgium
Denmark
Ethiopia
Lokot Republic
Luxembourg
Manchukuo (Manchuria)
Mengjiang
Nanjing puppet state
Provisional Government of Free India
Reichskommissariats of Ostland and Ukraine
Vichy France
White Russian client state in Soviet Far East

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Axis_Powers#Membership_of_the_Axis
I am not ashamed to confess that I am ignorant of what I do not know.
-Cicero

-- The Blue Knights --

Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6863
Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #53 on: May 04, 2006, 02:34:32 AM »
Quote
However, beating down German airpower in the defensive was no picnic either. With the bulk of its military resources allocated in the Eastern front the Luftwaffe was still powerful enough to cause such high loss rates to the US bombing campaigns that the entire daylight bombing raids were halted for a period.
The Americans never halted their bombing raids. They thought of going to night bombing as the British did, but instead only bombed targets that could have escorts.

Yes the tide had turned against the Germans with the Allied landings in Sicily which happened at the same time as Kursk. The Allies were past Rome and the Russians were still fighting on Soviet soil.


It is said that the SBC kept at least 1,000,000 'men' at home.


Sept 43 to oct 44

1. During the period in question, a constant 21-24% of the Luftwaffe's day fighters were based in the East - but only 12-14% of the Luftwaffe day fighter "losses" occurred in this theater.
 
2. During this period, a constant 75-78% of the day fighters were based in the West. The turnover was enormous: 14,720 aircraft were "lost", while operational strength averaged 1364.
 
3. During this period, 2294 day fighters were "lost" in the East; the ratio of western "losses" to eastern "losses" was thus 14,720/2294 = 6.4 to one.
 
4. During this period, a constant 43-46% of all of the Luftwaffe's operational aircraft were based in the East. It should be noted that these included entire categories (for example, battlefield recce, battle planes, dive bombers) that were used exclusively in the East, because they couldn't survive in the West..
 
5. During this period, a total of 8600 operational aircraft were "lost" in the East, while 27,060 were "lost" in the West; the ratio of western "losses" to eastern "losses" was thus 27,060/8600 = 3.41 to one.

Offline Angus

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10057
Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #54 on: May 04, 2006, 02:39:18 AM »
What Milo said.

I once browsed through the LW loss records in the IWM. I was stunned to see that they were losing equal or more aircraft in N-Africa alone than in the east. (1942, at the time of Stalingrad)

Would have taken days to compile it properly though.
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #55 on: May 04, 2006, 03:09:39 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Kweassa

 However, beating down German airpower in the defensive was no picnic either. With the bulk of its military resources allocated in the Eastern front the Luftwaffe was still powerful enough to cause such high loss rates to the US bombing campaigns that the entire daylight bombing raids were halted for a period. The survivability of a bomber crewman was becoming dangerously low for the US and as a result they had to redevise the entire bombing tactics to something that was much safer, with reduced accuracy in bombing compensated only by a massive number of bombs dropped - and despite this threat the German economy was still reaching its peak in production rates well up to 1944. Ofcourse, such production under war pressure would prove ultimately suicidal for a single country's overall economic structure, but the point is they were still making more planes in 1944 when the US was bombing the hell out its industry, than they were in 1941 when they were on the offensive.


There is a good study available freely on German production:

"DEMYSTIFYING THE GERMAN “ARMAMENT MIRACLE” DURING
WORLD WAR II. NEW INSIGHTS FROM THE ANNUAL AUDITS OF
GERMAN AIRCRAFT PRODUCERS"

by Lutz Budraß - Jonas Scherner - Jochen Streß

Available from here

Note that Lutz Budraß has also written larger study on German aircraft industry:

"Flugzeugindustrie und Luftrüstung in Deutschland 1918-1945"

That is a huge book written in german but worth to read if some one is really interested about the subject.

gripen

edit: Forget to told that the focus on these studies are in production and economics; hard core stuff :)
« Last Edit: May 04, 2006, 03:12:04 AM by gripen »

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #56 on: May 04, 2006, 03:16:55 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by MiloMorai

1. During the period in question, a constant 21-24% of the Luftwaffe's day fighters were based in the East - but only 12-14% of the Luftwaffe day fighter "losses" occurred in this theater.


Well, that is a bit misleading due to LW used a lot fighter bombers in east front. IIRC during 1944 about half of the Fw 190 production went to east.

gripen

Offline Kweassa

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6425
Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #57 on: May 04, 2006, 05:52:13 AM »
Quote
What Milo said.


 Thanks for the correction. Duly noted.

Offline MiloMorai

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6863
Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #58 on: May 04, 2006, 07:55:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by gripen
Well, that is a bit misleading due to LW used a lot fighter bombers in east front. IIRC during 1944 about half of the Fw 190 production went to east.

gripen
Gripen what does Points 2 > 5 say?

Offline gripen

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1914
Why Were The Allies So Successful
« Reply #59 on: May 04, 2006, 04:44:14 PM »
Milo,
Points 2 and 3 talk about the day fighters.
Points 4 and 5 talk about the all operational LW aircraft.

My point is simply that the LW used large amount of fighter bombers in east and these were mostly out of Fw 190 production and pilot training.

BTW those points are directly from Les Butler's web site and seem to be some kind of argument against Gröhler's data. IMHO both (Butler and Gröhler) are biased.

gripen