Engine Management During Combat

[mussie]

I was looking at some of the REAL OLD posts and saw one on engine managment. as I was reading through I saw this post from Pyro

http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=94477#post94477

Its from back in July of 1999

Originally posted by Pyro

~~~~SNIP~~~~
Players love to bombard me with with bits of testimony as unrefutable proof of something. I thought I'd put the shoe on the other foot and share this post.  For those of you who read rec.aviation.military, you've probably saw it last year.  It is by George Ceullers, a double ace who flew 38s and 51s.  Here's an excerpt of what he had to say about throttle control in combat:

"REgarding the various comments about throttling back or up a P-38 engine to increase maneuverability I can only repeat that this was not practiced as far as I know.  When I was overseas in 44 and 45, flying the J winter thru summer, the policy was to drop tanks and push up MP to 45 inches when German fighters were spotted in a position where an engagement was likely.  When you actually went for them, throttle up to WEP, 60 inches or so, rpm all the way up too, up past 3000 rpm.  And there it would stay until the engagement was over and you remembered to throttle back.  You could easily be at WEP for 20 minutes or more.  
Full power all the time was wanted because maneuvering bled off so much speed and altitude.  What you wanted was more power and more power.  All the prop fighters were underpowered and the only way to keep them turning was to keep them descending.  The more power you had available, the slower the descent and the easier the recovery."
 
~~~~Snip~~~~

What I was wondering is how much players adjust their engines during combat. Personally I usually find my self at full tilt unless I am trying to avoid the overshoot then its chopped back.....

[storch]

interesting, in the 109 I find myself working the throttle like a mad in a turn fight, as well as dropping flaps or riding the rudders to either bleed off speed or accellerate especially if I'm fighting spits. basically doing whatever necessary as I put myself in position to auger with panache.

[TequilaChaser]

As for flying in this WW2 simulation / game, I would figure prob about the top 20% or so of the better sticks will sometimes manage their throttle input........

1 reason being we have had many more years of learning to figure out what  can be accomplished plus all the different write-ups and articles regarding such...

I would say the reason it was like this back in WW2 was from not having the extra years of experience, knowing that going up full power, coming down in a rolling scissors, maybe less power to keep from over speeding......( or vice versa, all depends on the fight and how it is playing out )

in WW2 did they even know what a rolling scissors was?  I am sure they ( some had experienced it ) but the maneuver had not been termed that, as for some other maneuvers the same can be said.......as time progressed to this day people have experimented and picked up on what things can be accomplished to improve one's fight, to better their angles for setting up a solution......

there will always be natural dogfighter pilots, then the ones who study to learn and become better, then the avergae, then the mediocre, to the ones who never get it......in these groups each individual has a different timespan in which they eventually learn the essentials, then the more / most common concepts of dog fighting, then the advanced where the heck did that come from/how did he do that or pull that off uber chit.......


as for back in the 30's/40's they did not have the time available to figure all this stuff out.......my theory anyhows.......

to add: most times when I am holding the winning hand, prob will not touch throttle, but if I am at a disadvantage or fending off an attack, trying to even the fight out , then yes I will be working the throttle.....

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by storch
interesting, in the 109 I find myself working the throttle like a mad in a turn fight, as well as dropping flaps or riding the rudders to either bleed off speed or accellerate especially if I'm fighting spits. basically doing whatever necessary as I put myself in position to auger with panache.

Yus, kind of depends on the plane.  Those that regain their energy quickly benefit the most from throttle control - Spit is the prime example, 109s and 38s are close.  The energy-fighting planes like the Typhoon and FW usually don't, I think.

When no one's looking, grab a spit, get into a turnfight with another spit or a 109, and see what happens if you pull your throttle back to about 50% in the turns.

- oldman (don't admit to your mother that you did this)

[Vad]

It's incorrect to compare real life and a game.

All memoirs I have read about  fights in WW2 confirm that pilots used full throttle in combat and chopped back a little only when dived on target to avoid overspeed.

As everybody else they wanted to live. Scissors, hammerheads, cut throttle to stay on enemy's 6 - it is all from theory! Such things were very dangerous and confused your own wingman more than enemies.

BTW, losing speed you mosty put in danger your wingman, not you. He must  be behind to protect your 6, but nobody protects him. You can save his life only being fast!

[jon]

during a discovery channel program on dogfights, featured was a dogfight in korea .the pilot was i believe Boots Blesse. when talking about the fight he was comparing the f86 to the piston engined fighters he flew in wwII. one of the points he covered was that "in the jet he did not have to continually have to adjust the rpm's to match the power output." Take that for what its worth. I believe he would know

[Balsy]

Comparing AH to Real Life fighter combat is like comparing how you act in when Playing a FPS game to how you would react/act with real bullets flying over you head.

Big difference.

We all have the great benefit not REALLY being shot at in here. And hey, unlimited life affords you the opportunity to learn from dying.

You only get 1 of those in real combat.

Balsy

[68DevilM]

always adjusting throttle during combat.....i find it will get me around on sumones six alot easyer.

[Bodhi]

need also to keep in mind that the average dog fight in WW2 lasted mere seconds  to a couple minutes before an advantage was taken and the other extended to avoid by using clouds or other ilk.  Here, the advantageous red icon prevents that.

[Boxboy]

Originally posted by Bodhi
need also to keep in mind that the average dog fight in WW2 lasted mere seconds  to a couple minutes before an advantage was taken and the other extended to avoid by using clouds or other ilk.  Here, the advantageous red icon prevents that.

Yeah well they didn't fight OTHER p51's either, or similar aircraft to the one they were flying therefore SA was also abit different than we get and without the "red icon" I doubt many of us could tell who was who.

[TequilaChaser]

who ever thinks I was comparing the 2, that is not how I meant it to come out, if that is the impression you got.

I simply meant that I would think if the Fighter Pilots of WWII had the time to fly and fight ( hours in the seat ) as people have had since that great war, they probably would have came up with some of the same things people have experimented with / experienced over the last  60+ years since that time..( including REAL planes & REAL simulators & Simluated games ).......

the war from say '40 to '45 is such a limited amount of time for one to gather all the knowledge of what every plane can and can not do..........

again personal opinion,  isn't like they flew as many hours as some of the test pilots, aerobatics flyers, or flight instructors, or even sim players ( reason I mention Sim players, is the fact that this Sim is suppose to be striving to be as close to real as possible considering how a plane handled/maneuvered......)

I do agree though with the above quoted 38J pilot who described "you wanted all the power you could muster", ....ie.... speed/E = life........

[Spatula]

Im pretty much firewalled in me mustang (but not always with WEP on) except under the following conditions
 - i engage WEP to help acceleration periods, and climbs, vert-moves etc, but quickly turn it off as soon as i really dont need it on as the P51 doesnt have a terribly long WEP burn. If you can make it last and your opponent keeps his on in a prolonged fight you will have an advantage when and where it matters (down and dirty on the deck). You dont really need the WEP in a mustang as much as you think you do. 109s and the P47N are quite different tho.
 - Chop throttle to 0% on high-speed dive-ins.
 - Chop throttle to anything from 0 to 40% but mostly around 25%-35% or so on a planned 'saddle-up'
 - Sometimes chop on the 'with gravity' section of a looping manuever to avoid overspeeding and loosing altitude unecessarily depending on entry speed and the exit speed i think ill need and what my next move is anticipated to be.


Apart from that its firewalled during combat. Cant afford not to have all the speed i can muster in most situations as the P51 really shines at high speeds and has pretty average acceleration.

[Gryffin]

Originally posted by Pyro
Players love to bombard me with with bits of testimony as unrefutable proof of something.  I thought I'd put the shoe on the other foot and share this post.



You could easily be at WEP for 20 minutes or more.

I think the engine model in the game needs some work

[zelo13]

i've been flying the Ki-84 this tour and doing pretty well with it. i'm always adjusting the throttle during a furball, especially when going after a lower a/c due to the Ki's rapid acceleration and poor high-speed handling.

it doesn't take long in a dive before the Ki-84 starts to show mild to moderate compression. not a problem if i'm flying a lag pursuit but it get's problematic when i need to pull lead in order to create a firing solution. poor elevator response seems to be a particular issue that good throttle management can help alleviate.

flew the N1K last tour and it showed similar benefits when using good throttle control.