Author Topic: Atheism and the USA, followup (Read 9745 times)

moot · « **Reply #15 on:** May 11, 2006, 01:28:59 PM »

Arguing magic is a waste of calories.

Stang · « **Reply #16 on:** May 11, 2006, 01:30:21 PM »

There is no way this country is more religious today than in the past. If anything it's the opposite. That's why I don't fear the right wing bible thumpers at all, they're definately in the minority no matter what some wacko secular leftist might try to convice you of.

Hap · « **Reply #17 on:** May 11, 2006, 01:37:32 PM »

consider reading william bradford's "of plymouth plantation" and any other writings that predate 1700.

jefferson's diesm was certainly in vogue at the time.

~~hap~~

mosgood · « **Reply #18 on:** May 11, 2006, 01:52:40 PM »

Anyone know what religious beliefs of all the founding fathers? I would think that THAT would have a big influence on what they ment.

Skuzzy · « **Reply #19 on:** May 11, 2006, 02:23:24 PM »

Ya know. Religion, or the expresison thereof, is just another opinion. Everyone builds their way of life around opinions. I see religion as just another unsubstantiated opinion. You are free to have to have your own opinions.

I really do not know where society took the wrong turn. Once we started putting labels on ideas, we became bigots. For me, there is no difference between hating someone for thier skin color, or hating them for thier ideas.

The promotion of labeling everyone is saddening. It simply means we are driven or compelled to insure division amongst ourselves. This allows petty people to take control as we cannot, nor ever will, be able to find a common ground to bring us together.

It will be the undoing of mankind.

indy007 · « **Reply #20 on:** May 11, 2006, 02:42:30 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Mickey1992
The American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) 2001 shows the opposite (1990 - 88.3%, 2001 - 79.8%). Where is your information coming from?

Ahh, found it! All-in-wonder tractor-feed/flatbed scanner/fax/copiers rock

lazs2 · « **Reply #21 on:** May 11, 2006, 02:43:04 PM »

Jefferson believed as I believe so far as I can tell

"We have solved, by fair experiment, the great and interesting question whether freedom of religion is compatible with order in government and obedience to the laws. And we have experienced the quiet as well as the comfort which results from leaving every one to profess freely and openly those principles of religion which are the inductions of his own reason and the serious convictions of his own inquiries." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to Virginia Baptists, 1808. ME 16:320
"The constitutional freedom of religion [is] the most inalienable and sacred of all human rights." --Thomas Jefferson: Virginia Board of Visitors Minutes, 1819. ME 19:416

"Among the most inestimable of our blessings, also, is that... of liberty to worship our Creator in the way we think most agreeable to His will; a liberty deemed in other countries incompatible with good government and yet proved by our experience to be its best support." --Thomas Jefferson: Reply to John Thomas et al., 1807. ME 16:291

"In our early struggles for liberty, religious freedom could not fail to become a primary object." --Thomas Jefferson to Baltimore Baptists, 1808. ME 16:317

"Religion, as well as reason, confirms the soundness of those principles on which our government has been founded and its rights asserted." --Thomas Jefferson to P. H. Wendover, 1815. ME 14:283

"One of the amendments to the Constitution... expressly declares that 'Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof, or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press,' thereby guarding in the same sentence and under the same words, the freedom of religion, of speech, and of the press; insomuch that whatever violates either throws down the sanctuary which covers the others." --Thomas Jefferson: Draft Kentucky Resolutions, 1798. ME 17:382

"The rights [to religious freedom] are of the natural rights of mankind, and... if any act shall be... passed to repeal [an act granting those rights] or to narrow its operation, such act will be an infringement of natural right." --Thomas Jefferson:

I think that he felt that everyone was entitled to believe as he wished and that the "establishment of religion" as it applied to the government meant that no one religion would recieve any special treatment under or be sponsored soley by government.

I am not a Christian. I have nothing against Christians per se... until they gain power over me and try to remove my rights.

Having said that... I find chairboy and others insistence that they are "athiests" to be pretty funny... It seems like a play for attention... a play to look "hip"... silly really.

Why not just say "I don't know" and be done with it if you have doubts? certainly.... you have no proof nor.... does it really affect you one way or the other....

To have to go out of your way to claim and repeatedly proclaim in every available forum (here... to grandma etc.) that "I AM AN ATHIEST" to shock and to garner attention... this smacks of religion to me...your athiesm is a religion.

When people tell me they have seen ghosts or aliens... I let em slide... Hell.... I don't know if those things exist.... I certainly am not gonna make a fool of myself and say that tjhey don't.... truth is... I don't know. I don't care if it is hip or whatever to make fun of em... it makes no sense to.

Truth is....you don't know either chairboy so quit making a fool of yourself. You and others seem to delight in attacking religious people... this makes you guys seem like the zealots you are condeming.

But...I will be glad to banter Jefferson with you tho. He is a very interesting and complex man who lived long enough and was smart enough to evolve and even change some of his thinking while maintaining a certain core human rights stance.

lazs

Simaril · « **Reply #22 on:** May 11, 2006, 02:47:11 PM »

Jefferson also said, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. " Does that mean we need to have a war or assassination now and then to stay free?

My point being that the Founding Fathers were just people, with opinions and ideas as divergent as people have today.

Jefferson was an intellectual, who owned slaves despite seeing the conflict with his humanitarianism. He (and the other Virginian founding fathers) were landed aristocrats in a highly stratified local society.

Adams was a self made, practically educated driven man with a puritan background and mindset. He felt awful about his never ending ambition, but not awful enough to give it up.

Both were founders -- and neither were anything more than individuals who reflected their subcultures.

Immigrants during america's first centuries WERE a unique bunch, self selected out of their birth cultures for drive, and willingness to work to make life changes. And, a very high proportion of religiously motivated people. I remember reading in ?simon Schama's Story of Britain that while abstainers from the mandatory Church of England amounted to only ~5% or less in Britain, they were ~40% or more in the English colonies. (NUmbers off the top of my head....)

So america IS unique, in that her citizens have been selected in a statistically skewed manner for both initiative and religious commitment. its no surprise that those trends continue, if we acknowledge that some personality features are genetic, and religious beliefs are likely to be passed on generationally within the family.

Simaril · « **Reply #23 on:** May 11, 2006, 02:50:09 PM »

Indy, dont forget "Liars, Dam liars, and Statisticians"!!

Your data uses church membership as a proxy for religious commitment, without accounting for nonmember believers. Has the fraction church members/all believers been constant at all points in the history of religious culture? I'd bet not.

Also, "early America" is not usually held to have started in the 1870's -- why was that date picked?

Was it because the Third Great Awakening (Wiki article) started in 1880, guaranteeing an upward curve in religiousity?

Was the presenter's thesis harder to support from data in the 1600's and 1700's? Makes conclusions very hard to draw from data presented.

Made all the harder by the tendency of fanatics on both sides to tout the info that supports their beliefs, even if they have to tweak the numbers, or pick the variables, to show what they want to be true.

indy007 · « **Reply #24 on:** May 11, 2006, 03:33:28 PM »

Actually iirc, the quote was "There are lies, damn lies, and church statistics.” It's that way according to The Great Quotations. Kinda strange though that it's attributed to Disraeli, but doesn't appear in any of his writings.

lasersailor184 · « **Reply #25 on:** May 11, 2006, 03:49:33 PM »

See Rule #4

Hap · « **Reply #26 on:** May 11, 2006, 04:48:50 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lasersailor184
But both you and I know that you'll never read the Declaration, nor actually understand what he was talking about.

I have and do.

~~hap~~

Chairboy · « **Reply #27 on:** May 11, 2006, 05:00:09 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Simaril
Jefferson also said, "The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants. " Does that mean we need to have a war or assassination now and then to stay free?

Yes. Next question?

Debonair · « **Reply #28 on:** May 11, 2006, 05:02:27 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Skuzzy
Ya know. Religion, or the expresison thereof, is just another opinion. Everyone builds their way of life around opinions. I see religion as just another unsubstantiated opinion. You are free to have to have your own opinions.

I really do not know where society took the wrong turn. Once we started putting labels on ideas, we became bigots. For me, there is no difference between hating someone for thier skin color, or hating them for thier ideas.

The promotion of labeling everyone is saddening. It simply means we are driven or compelled to insure division amongst ourselves. This allows petty people to take control as we cannot, nor ever will, be able to find a common ground to bring us together.

It will be the undoing of mankind.

u anti-labelists are ruining america!!!!!!!1

Bodhi · « **Reply #29 on:** May 11, 2006, 06:03:36 PM »

Specifically, the last paragraph I think more than confirms the belief that God is and was a founding principle over the United States and they cite it:

We, therefore, the Representatives of the United States of America, in General Congress, Assembled, appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world for the rectitude of our intentions, do, in the Name, and by Authority of the good People of these Colonies, solemnly publish and declare, That these United Colonies are, and of Right ought to be Free and Independent States, that they are Absolved from all Allegiance to the British Crown, and that all political connection between them and the State of Great Britain, is and ought to be totally dissolved; and that as Free and Independent States, they have full Power to levy War, conclude Peace contract Alliances, establish Commerce, and to do all other Acts and Things which Independent States may of right do. — And for the support of this Declaration, with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence , we mutually pledge to each other our Lives, our Fortunes and our sacred Honor.

There is more to it, but that paragraph alone, the conclusion, sums up the entire Declaration.