Atheism and the USA, followup

[Chairboy]

Stumbled across an image today that I thought I'd share, as a counterpoint to the oft repeated claims here that christianity is the core of our government.



Here's one for Lazs, who (if I recall correctly) kept claiming that atheism was a religion:

If atheism is a religion, then health is a disease.
- Clark Adams

[indy007]

Food for thought. The general opinion potrayed by the news, and spoken by very many people (including many on this board), is that the US is in a downward spiral of morality. At the same time, there is currently a higher percentage of Christians in the US than any time in history.

Absolute Morality leads to Absolute Intolerance.

Hooray for Provisional Morality & Provisional Libertarianism

[Jackal1]

Great for when there is a head wind Chair.

[Mickey1992]

Originally posted by indy007
...there is currently a higher percentage of Christians in the US than any time in history.

The American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) 2001 shows the opposite (1990 - 88.3%, 2001 - 79.8%).  Where is your information coming from?

[mosgood]

Originally posted by indy007
Food for thought. The general opinion potrayed by the news, and spoken by very many people (including many on this board), is that the US is in a downward spiral of morality. At the same time, there is currently a higher percentage of Christians in the US than any time in history.

Absolute Morality leads to Absolute Intolerance.

Hooray for Provisional Morality & Provisional Libertarianism

Christianity - Don't hack it till you try it.  It has a bad rap but that doesn't come from the teachings of the bible.  The Bible was just a political document in my mind until I stopped talking about something I hadn't read yet.  So I read it and now it makes sense.

[indy007]

Originally posted by Mickey1992
The American Religious Identification Survey (ARIS) 2001 shows the opposite (1990 - 88.3%, 2001 - 79.8%).  Where is your information coming from?

The Science of Good and Evil, by Michael Shermer. Go back further on the survey to when the country was founded and compare the %'s then. There's quite a bit more disparity than you'd think. People have been saying the country has been spiralling out of control since shortly after it became a country.

Either way, the cartoon was right, the framers of the Constitution were heavily influenced by secular Enlightenment philosophers, who's writings laid the groundwork for a secular ethical and political system. Regardless of which religion (or even no religion) one believes in, certain moral principles hold. Life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. It's primitive and flawed (open to abuse, etc), but it's still the best thing we have. This is in exact opposition to many religious beliefs (no gay marriage, etc).

The quote at the end of Chairboy's post can also be picked apart. Atheism can easily lead to Absolutism. You see this when people are so quick to jump and and bash religions and ideas they don't believe in. At that point, whether the source of the ethical behavior comes from God, the Koran, the state, nature, ideology, or philosophy... it doesn't matter, because the end result is the same. They become the final arbiters of truth, creating Good & Evil, Right & Wrong, Faithful & Apostate.

"Don't be silly, Ninety-Nine. We have to shoot, kill, and destroy. We represent everything that's wholesome and good in the world." -Agent Eighty Six, Get Smart

[indy007]

Originally posted by mosgood
Christianity - Don't hack it till you try it.  It has a bad rap but that doesn't come from the teachings of the bible.  The Bible was just a political document in my mind until I stopped talking about something I hadn't read yet.  So I read it and now it makes sense.

I was baptised Roman Catholic many moons ago. Baptism, First Confession, Confirmation, was an Altar Boy (save the molestation jokes, I've heard them all, and my spincter has never been violated), grew up going to a private, Catholic school (6 hours of Religion class weekly for 8 years). Read the bible once or twice

edit: Ironic memory that just dredged up while re-reading this post... one time the Bishop was saying mass at our church, and we had 5 altar boys instead of 2 or 3. I had to hold his pointy hat & beanie and bring it out at various times... I accidently blew a booger on it and had to rub it in real quick so you couldn't see the spot... never mentioned that to anybody but my current g/f 12 or 13 year after it happend. Pretty glad nobody noticed at the time.

I'm not knocking Christianity at all. Simply put, I can be good and moral without God or the threat of divine, fiery retribution, or the promises of enternal paradise. I think religion is even helpful for many people. It gets them on the right track and can help improve some behavior (sometimes immoral, as opposed to constantly immoral). However, I think it's folly to assume religion has the final say in what is right & wrong.

[Thud]

Just a related little issue that has been "bothering" me:

As someone who values pragmatic and realistic reasoning (self-acclaimed) I find the thought of religious people in places of authority or within my organization somewhat disturbing.

How the hell can I hire, consult, employ, work with or depend on someone who makes important decisions and builds his frame of reference on something that never has been proven, indicated or even remotely been hinted at by some tangible events or items or the like?

If an individual says that there is a deity because he believes so, how can I be assured that he will base his decision to accept an offer, participate in a project or bid on a job on real-world considerations, not some hunch or irrational belief?

I know I've formulated it without nuance but in general this is at least an interesting consideration...

[mosgood]

Originally posted by indy007
I was baptised Roman Catholic many moons ago. Baptism, First Confession, Confirmation, was an Altar Boy (save the molestation jokes, I've heard them all, and my spincter has never been violated), grew up going to a private, Catholic school (6 hours of Religion class weekly for 8 years). Read the bible once or twice

edit: Ironic memory that just dredged up while re-reading this post... one time the Bishop was saying mass at our church, and we had 5 altar boys instead of 2 or 3. I had to hold his pointy hat & beanie and bring it out at various times... I accidently blew a booger on it and had to rub it in real quick so you couldn't see the spot... never mentioned that to anybody but my current g/f 12 or 13 year after it happend. Pretty glad nobody noticed at the time.

I'm not knocking Christianity at all. Simply put, I can be good and moral without God or the threat of divine, fiery retribution, or the promises of enternal paradise. I think religion is even helpful for many people. It gets them on the right track and can help improve some behavior (sometimes immoral, as opposed to constantly immoral). However, I think it's folly to assume religion has the final say in what is right & wrong.

Ya, after I re-read my post I realized you really hadn't.  Sorry for trying to put words in your mouth.

Funny story

[MoeRon]

I guess it's time to peel off my What Would Jesus Do poster off my cubicle.

[J_A_B]

Those studies claiming that 75%+ of americans are religious get those absurdly high results because people like me who haven't gone to church in many years still mark the box for "Catholic" (or whatever demonination).


In practice, I believe that well under half of the population is functionally religious.



J_A_B

[Chairboy]

Great thread so far, thanks guys!  (Well, no thanks to Jackal1, the only troll I've seen here today).

I was originally going to post that quote and cartoon to the 'Atheists least trusted' thread, but that's been dead for a month.

Last year, my wife told her grandmother that she was atheist (when asked about something having to do with church plans for the kids).  Her grandmother was completely shocked and thought my wife was trying to fool her.  After talking, it became clear that her grandma had been taught that atheists were no  different from satanists (the irony was lost on her).  We've talked with friends, and it seems like that's not an uncommon assumption, that atheism is inherently evil.  

Jackal1's posturing aside, I know that this is a solid group with a wide variety of backgrounds, including plenty of folks with religious backgrounds that I'd never have a chance to talk to in person.  

Back to business, does anyone disagree with the Jeffersonian quotes in the first post?  It seems to be more evidence that our founding fathers did not envision the christian paradise that some of my compatriots suggest.

[Chairboy]

John Adams:
# The question before the human race is, whether the God of nature shall govern the world by his own laws, or whether priests and kings shall rule it by fictitious miracles.

[beet1e]

If atheism is a religion, then health is a disease.

The one I like is "saying that atheism is a religion is like saying that bald is a hair colour".

[indy007]

Originally posted by Chairboy
Back to business, does anyone disagree with the Jeffersonian quotes in the first post?  It seems to be more evidence that our founding fathers did not envision the christian paradise that some of my compatriots suggest.

"Faith in God is important to me. Surely you recognize the equal citizenship and patriotism of Americans who are atheists?" -anonymous reporter

"No, I don't know that atheists should be considered as citizens, nor should they be considered patriots. This is one nation under God." -George Bush, Sr., O'Hare Airport, 1988 presidential campaign.


ahh, here's a good one... according to a 1997 survey conducted by the University of Ohio, it showed intolerance among Christian activists is relatively high, especially when it comes to the perceived moral delcine of America. 99% agreed that "moral decay is the cause of America's problems." 33% of those that responded listed the ACLU as the most dangerous group in America. Gay rights groups came a close second. 80% stated that members of the ACLU and gay rights groups "should not be allowed to: make a public speech, run for public office, demonstrate in public, or operate legally." 44% declared that such dangerous people "should not be allowed to teach in public schools." 52% agreed with the statement: "Christians should take dominion over all aspects of society." No less than 91% believe that "God works through politics and election returns," and 89% think that ""the U.S. has prospered when it obeyed God", and that "Clergy and churches should be involved in politics." 75% agreed that, "if enough people were brought to Christ, social ills would take care of themselves."

Now, I don't put all my faith into that study. That would be ridiculous. I could easily pad such a study by simply picking people who had jesus fish emblems on their trunk (or better, the fish eating the darwin fish), on the logic that people who go to lengths to show their beliefs are more likely to have extremist stances. Ever had your car keyed 2 days after putting a darwin sticker on the trunk? Thankfully it was a crappy car, and a bottle of touch up paint later (and a new darwin sticker) and I was good to go.