Atheism and the USA, followup

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
"Atheistic belief"  

Faith is the belief in the unprovable.
The existence or non existence of God is unprovable.

Therefore, .... if one believes in the unprovable, one has faith.

Faith is the foundation of Religion.  All you need to do then is have a leadership, an organization that defends the faith and proselytizes the belief and you have a religion.

I heard this in my head in the Monty Python voice... "and if it weighs the same as a duck......."

I have faith in a lot of things that don't constitute a religion.

[lukster]

Originally posted by midnight Target
I heard this in my head in the Monty Python voice... "and if it weighs the same as a duck......."

I have faith in a lot of things that don't constitute a religion.

religion: a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

I think atheism qualifies.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by midnight Target
I have faith in a lot of things that don't constitute a religion.

You have unquestioning beliefs in the truth of unprovable ideas?

I took you for a more logic based individual.

[midnight Target]

I believe black holes exist. Can you prove that they do? You can suppose, you can draw inferences from empirical data, but you can't prove it.

I guess I belong to the Religion of the Almighty Black Hole.

[lukster]

Originally posted by midnight Target
I believe black holes exist. Can you prove that they do? You can suppose, you can draw inferences from empirical data, but you can't prove it.

I guess I belong to the Religion of the Almighty Black Hole.

Just don't drink the kool-aid.

[Chairboy]

If you don't believe the easter bunny exists, that's a religion too, right?

[lukster]

Originally posted by Chairboy
If you don't believe the easter bunny exists, that's a religion too, right?

I guess that depends on how ardent your belief or fervent your preaching. I think it really goads some to discover they are what they despise.

For the sake of argument though there is absolutely no evidence to support belief in the "easter bunny" that isn't easily disproven. On the other hand we have the Universe.

[Chairboy]

Ah, but that's evidence that the universe exists, not god.

My kids get candy on easter, so the easter bunny exists, right?  That's the same quality of logic being employed to use the existance of the universe as proof of god.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by midnight Target
I believe black holes exist. Can you prove that they do? You can suppose, you can draw inferences from empirical data, but you can't prove it.

I guess I belong to the Religion of the Almighty Black Hole.

So you maintain that the existance of black holes is an unprovable idea in which you have an unquestioning belief? I have faith that that is not what you meant, but if so, you do belong to the religion.
 
My confidence in the existance of black holes comes from the extrapolation of General Relativity.  A scientific process which if shown wrong tomorrow, would eliminate my confidence in the idea.

[Holden McGroin]

Originally posted by Chairboy
Ah, but that's evidence that the universe exists, not god.

My kids get candy on easter, so the easter bunny exists, right?  That's the same quality of logic being employed to use the existance of the universe as proof of god.

Is there no other explanation fo the appearance of the candy?

[midnight Target]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
So you maintain that the existance of black holes is an unprovable idea in which you have an unquestioning belief? I have faith that that is not what you meant, but if so, you do belong to the religion.
 
My confidence in the existance of black holes comes from the extrapolation of General Relativity.  A scientific process which if shown wrong tomorrow, would eliminate my confidence in the idea.

Quit messing with my religion.

[Chairboy]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
Is there no other explanation fo the appearance of the candy?

Of course there are.  You could argue that my wife or I put the candy out.  Of course, there are other explanations for the existance of the universe too, explanations that have experimental evidence can be modeled mathematically, and are visible to the eyes of deep space telescopes.

So going back to the beginning, saying "if the universe exists, that proves god" is equally as valid as saying "if my kid finds candy on easter, then the easter bunny exists".

[lukster]

Originally posted by Chairboy
Ah, but that's evidence that the universe exists, not god.

My kids get candy on easter, so the easter bunny exists, right?  That's the same quality of logic being employed to use the existance of the universe as proof of god.

Your kids belief that a bunny delivered their candy is false and easily and concretely disproven.

When you can prove to me that the Universe was not intentionally created by an intelligent being I will give up my belief that it was. I believe that I fully understand my faith. Do you understand yours?

You have the evidence of a Universe, that is your ultimately reality. You cannot explain how it came to be without faith.

How religious you are in this is directly realted to how fervent you are in believing that which you cannot prove.

[Holden McGroin]

The explanation of the divine cause of the universe does not end the chain of questions.  

To the chain that ends "Who (or what) created the universe" it just adds "Who created God?"

The answer that God created universe is not supported by a logical argument.  It is faith based: logic and faith cannot be used to prove each other.

[lukster]

Originally posted by Holden McGroin
The explanation of the divine cause of the universe does not end the chain of questions.  

To the chain that ends "Who (or what) created the universe" it just adds "Who created God?"

The answer that God created universe is not supported by a logical argument.  It is faith based: logic and faith cannot be used to prove each other.

I believe that time and space is a creation and therfore it's creator must exist "beyond" it. Therefore the "who created God" question may not be valid since it is based on our experience within the constraints of linear perception. I do relaize of course that this same argument may be applied to the existence of a "createdless" Universe. I admit to having faith.