Author Topic: Atheism and the USA, followup (Read 9386 times)

lazs2 · « **Reply #360 on:** May 24, 2006, 08:22:11 AM »

Holden said (quite well)

"And if you accept the one truth to be one way or the other on the existance of god, you have taken an illogical step. A leap of faith as it were. "

yep... in a nutshell... a leap of faith. But why such a leap of faith? It is easy to see the motive and reasons for the believer in god.... it is easy to see the motives and thought process of the agnostic too..

it is the athiest that is the slippery one... The hidden agenda... the damage... the urge to be hip like their teachers... lots of things... none pretty.

so why shoul I trust em? look at em in this thread... they are pitiful... tap dancing at an alarming pace.... showing us their best moves and never showing us anything but BS.

If you can't even get someone to admit that faith based belief is a leap of faith...

"little green men from mars" whoever said that... does that mean if there is no martians or... if there are but they are not green or even little that no alien life exists?

If you can prove that one date in the bible is wrong does that mean that every religion... every person who has a god is.... wrong? What kind of scientific method... what kind of convoluted dishonest thinking is that?

I will never try to force my belief on you and will allways admit it is my belief and that I have no proof. The smug and dishonest athiest needs to act the same...

Till he does.... why should I trust him?

Also... wrag has pretty much pegged my position so..... It is probly not that I am so hard to understand but that some of those I am talking to have no ears for what I am saying.

lazs

indy007 · « **Reply #361 on:** May 24, 2006, 09:18:09 AM »

10 Religious: There is a God, prove there's not!
20 Athiest: There is no god, prove that there is!
30 Agnostic: I'm the smartest, I know nothing!
goto 10

Chairboy · « **Reply #362 on:** May 24, 2006, 10:22:03 AM »

There's nothing slippery about it, I assumed you understood the definitions of the words. If you really don't, then here are other sources, randomly picked from google:

http://www.strange-loops.com/athwhatis.html
http://www.2think.org/hii/atheism.shtml
http://www.geocities.com/inquisitive79/agnovsath.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atheism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnosticism

Are you seriously going to keep trying to attack my definition? There's nothing remarkable about it, it's just what anyone who studies the subject learns. I wasn't bothering to answer this because I didn't want to embarass anyone, but jeepers.

Now can we continue the conversation? I've given the educated definition to atheism vs. agnosticism, and it deals with just about all of your concerns. I guess the ball is firmly in your court.

Thud · « **Reply #363 on:** May 24, 2006, 11:29:49 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
the urge to be hip like their teachers...

A peculiar choice of words, coming from a religious person, a species so interwoven with the concept of indoctrination and unquestioning adoption of their leaders' dogma's...

Ah well, thank 'god' that religion is a dying phenomenon here, an archaic concept that only serves those who have nothing else as purpose (ref. the third world) or those that use it as a tool of power, moral superiority and means to control and steer the clueless masses (e.g. the US)

AVRO1 · « **Reply #364 on:** May 24, 2006, 12:09:40 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2 it is the athiest that is the slippery one... The hidden agenda... the damage... the urge to be hip like their teachers... lots of things... none pretty.

so why shoul I trust em? look at em in this thread... they are pitiful... tap dancing at an alarming pace.... showing us their best moves and never showing us anything but BS.

If you can't even get someone to admit that faith based belief is a leap of faith...

If you can prove that one date in the bible is wrong does that mean that every religion... every person who has a god is.... wrong? What kind of scientific method... what kind of convoluted dishonest thinking is that?

I will never try to force my belief on you and will allways admit it is my belief and that I have no proof. The smug and dishonest athiest needs to act the same...

You're generalizing again lazsy. I'm an atheist and I'm not telling you what to believe, I did not show you any BS and I'm not dancing.

The bible is full of holes that indicate that it was written by ignorant men. Which prooves it is not the word of god, not god's non existence.

Besides, prooving the existence of god is not science's role. Science is tries to understanding the physical world, not a metaphysical one that may exist.

SaburoS · « **Reply #365 on:** May 24, 2006, 12:45:08 PM »

Lazs,

1) How has any Atheist here tried "to force their belief on you" or anyone else here?
I doubt anyone here is that weakminded to be swayed by the mere posting of one stating of what they think.

2) Is it possible that there is no God/Supreme Being?
I've asked that question yet you keep "tap dancing" around it.

As to the green men on Mars question, I've already specifically elaborated on it.

"It is probly not that I am so hard to understand but that some of those I am talking to have no ears for what I am saying. " - Look in the mirror, so quit being so "smug" about it.

The problem I see here is your need to group things in black and white.
You've tied in faith with equaling religion which is very "smug and dishonest" of you. Under your criteria, I'm not going to play that way.

For the record, yes, we all use faith on a daily basis.
I have faith that when I cross the street after looking both ways, I won't get hit by a car.
I have faith that when "my" sports team is doing well, they are going to win the championship.
I have faith that by my traveling the straight, righteous, and narrow path, that I won't get into trouble.
I have faith that when science, biology, and real world situations match, there is one "truth" in those specific applications.
I have faith that walking down the street, the force due to gravity won't all of a sudden fail me and I end up in the air.
I have faith that we need Oxygen, water, food, etc to live.
...even though proof exists to the above, I have faith in it.

My belief system is that I see no proof of God, therefore God doesn't exist.
Divine intervention? Nope.
The Lochness Monster? Nope.
Do I use faith that my logic and conclusions right? Sure do.
Is it a religion? Nope.

Notice the one important fact is that I am outlining my belief. I am not trying to convince others that they are wrong.
I do not feel threatened in my belief system just because the Agnostic, the Christian, the Catholic, the Muslim, etc., state their beliefs.

The funny thing is you get all up in arms, flailing away, for a phantom argument that you've created, all the while pointing fingers at those you are having a disagreement with.

So, lazs (I'm the honest one), is it possible that I could be right about there not being a God or Devine intervention?
If you are a true Agnostic, you'd have to say "Yes, it is possible."
To say "No." takes you out of the Agnostic camp.

Honest.

lukster · « **Reply #366 on:** May 24, 2006, 01:24:43 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SaburoS
So, lazs (I'm the honest one), is it possible that I could be right about there not being a God or Devine intervention?
If you are a true Agnostic, you'd have to say "Yes, it is possible."
To say "No." takes you out of the Agnostic camp.

Honest.

Hang on now, I think you're assuming too much. It's not just agnostics but also many who claim belief in God that know full well that they can't prove it and understand that it is possbile that they could be wrong. That's why it's called belief and faith.

Like I said before, your level of religiousity is likely directly proportionate to the certainty of your faith.

SaburoS · « **Reply #367 on:** May 24, 2006, 01:35:24 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lukster
Hang on now, I think you're assuming too much. It's not just agnostics but also many who claim belief in God that know full well that they can't prove it and understand that it is possbile that they could be wrong. That's why it's called belief and faith.

Like I said before, your level of religiousity is likely directly proportionate to the certainty of your faith.

Bingo. I have no faith that God exists, therefore Atheism is not a religion.
Maybe we're getting somewhere finally. I doubt it though.
What is the opposite of a belief in God?
That there is no God.
One takes a leap of faith to belief in a God, the other refuses to take that leap of faith.
Nothing more, nothing less.
Because one takes that leap of faith, doesn't mean it is not the truth for them.
I believe that those that believe in God, do so with they're believing it as the truth. That's why I will never tell them that they are wrong for what they believe in.
All I can say is my beliefs are different in that case. I won't make that leap of faith.
Do you see where I'm coming from (finally)?

If you do, we move on, if not we keep dancing around and around in circles.

lazs2 · « **Reply #368 on:** May 24, 2006, 02:14:34 PM »

whoa... where did I say that I was a christian or that the bible is the only way a person can believe in god?

Where did I say that I had a religious leader that I followed or that one was needed to believe in god?

Again... my belief in god is my own. I freely admit that I have no proof and that it is only a leap of faith. I simply ask that you so called athiests do the same... admit that your belief that there is no god is a leap of faith.

How can you be trusted if you lie to us? You claim that you know there is no god but you don't really "know" you are guessing.

Are their aliens? are there ghosts? psychic powers? You don't know... I don't either... I am agnostic on those things. I am not even sure if there is a loch ness monster or green people were ever on mars.... I say I don't know.... you say...."yep.... none of those things exist cause no one has proved it"

boy is your face gonna be red someday.

nope.... to claim that you positively know that there is no god is to make a statement of faith....a "leap" of faith and... to declare an agenda.

I have no doubt that only the so called athiests on this board are still thinking that their tap dancing around this truth is fooling anyone at this point... It is even past semantics.... it is klinton saying "depends on what the defenistion of is...is" at this point.

so you got a grudge against god or religion or maybe god let your puppy die one time... maybe you just want to appear the hip rebel... that's all fine with me but admit it. or.... admit that you have a deep seated faith that there is no god and that your deep seated faith is....

A leap of faith.

lazs

lazs2 · « **Reply #369 on:** May 24, 2006, 02:16:53 PM »

and suibaru... no...you don't take a leap of faith about religion or aliens or whatever...

instead...you take a different leap of faith and say that they are not possible.

can we admit that and move on?

lazs

SaburoS · « **Reply #370 on:** May 24, 2006, 02:29:35 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lukster
Hang on now, I think you're assuming too much. It's not just agnostics but also many who claim belief in God that know full well that they can't prove it and understand that it is possbile that they could be wrong. That's why it's called belief and faith.

I had to quote this separately and comment on it separately as I forgot to address it earlier.

I disagree. If they truly believed that they COULD be wrong, that would mean that I COULD be right. But this isn't the case here.
That is why some feel threatened when confronted with a belief system opposite of their own.
Most here believe in God and they do so feeling it is the truth, that it is real.
I actually agree with them in that they feel it is real and true....to them.
I can respect another having a belief system different than my own and am not out to insult others for their belief nor am I trying to change their's.
Can you say the same?
What I find troublesome and ugly is the continued mud slinging and labeling based solely on association.
I include some Atheists here in that group as well. Not conducive to a civilized discussion.

If you want to see more of my thoughts on this subject, check my post history or ask me more questions.

lazs2 · « **Reply #371 on:** May 24, 2006, 02:33:36 PM »

subaru... one group admits their faith based belief.... the other does not...

both beliefs are faith based...

Who would you trust when push came to shove? even for an opinion?

lazs

lukster · « **Reply #372 on:** May 24, 2006, 03:07:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by SaburoS
I had to quote this separately and comment on it separately as I forgot to address it earlier.

I disagree. If they truly believed that they COULD be wrong, that would mean that I COULD be right. But this isn't the case here.

Are you presuming to tell me what I believe? I choose to believe in God but understand that I might be wrong which would make you right. Are you so blinded by your faith and prejudice that you won't accept what I am telling you?

SaburoS · « **Reply #373 on:** May 24, 2006, 03:11:37 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
whoa... where did I say that I was a christian or that the bible is the only way a person can believe in god?

Where did I say that I had a religious leader that I followed or that one was needed to believe in god?

You've been quite clear on that. Kindly show me where I said you were or did the above? You won't find it cause I didn't. Yet even now you still create this phantom argument. You were saying something about honesty and lying?
Your face red yet?

I don't think you see nor realize it.

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
Again... my belief in god is my own. I freely admit that I have no proof and that it is only a leap of faith. I simply ask that you so called athiests do the same... admit that your belief that there is no god is a leap of faith.

Why should I? I am not the one taking the leap of faith here. You admit that you cannot prove and that it is YOUR belief of god's existance.
Are you saying that the possibility of God's non-existance is... not possible?
Your very argument betrays your supposed unbias in the issue of God's existance.
Even now you still fail to realize that I, by not taking that same leap of faith you or anyone else that believes in God, ...is...not...the...same...th ing.

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
How can you be trusted if you lie to us? You claim that you know there is no god but you don't really "know" you are guessing.

Again, you presume to be the all knowing, that there is no possibility of God not existing. Therefore, anyone that disagrees with that premise, must be lying. Anyone that hasn't taken that leap of faith in God's existence is wrong, as you argue that way.

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
Are their aliens? are there ghosts? psychic powers? You don't know... I don't either... I am agnostic on those things. I am not even sure if there is a loch ness monster or green people were ever on mars.... I say I don't know.... you say...."yep.... none of those things exist cause no one has proved it"

How do you know what I know?
You like to keep making assumptions to fit the box of your 'argument'.
I was very specific about the possibilty of aliens existing AND the Green men from Mars issue. Too bad you didn't actually read it.
Kind of a dishonest way of having a discussion, eh?

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
boy is your face gonna be red someday.

Again, you presume too much.
Kind of smug of you actually.

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
nope.... to claim that you positively know that there is no god is to make a statement of faith....a "leap" of faith and... to declare an agenda.

Wrong.
I make that statement based on....well you reread what I've posted.
Are you that paranoid that you feel I have an "agenda"?
What agenda is this for you really have me puzzled here.
Don't tell me you belief system is that fragile that you cannot accept a different way of thinking of your own. Kind of sensitive of you actually.

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
I have no doubt that only the so called athiests on this board are still thinking that their tap dancing around this truth is fooling anyone at this point... It is even past semantics.... it is klinton saying "depends on what the defenistion of is...is" at this point.

Again, you betray your supposed unbias.

My truth:
God has not been proven to exist for me, therefore God does not exist.
To state that I have to have a leap of faith to believe it is to make the assumption that God does exist, that I am wrong.

Quote

Originally posted by lazs2
so you got a grudge against god or religion or maybe god let your puppy die one time... maybe you just want to appear the hip rebel... that's all fine with me but admit it. or.... admit that you have a deep seated faith that there is no god and that your deep seated faith is....

A leap of faith.

lazs

Again, you presume too much.
I never lost a puppy or did I go through anything tramatic. I never was taught that there was a God so I never 'lost' a faith of their being a God's existance.
Call me the sceptic.
Rebel? That's funny. I dn't go around with signs indicating that I am an Atheist, nor do I try to 'convert' others out of their religious beliefs.

I'm fairly private but for your benefit:

I was married to a Catholic. We were together for 19 years, married for the last 9. See was practicing in that she always went to Mass, went to church, etc. Her uncle is now a Cardinal.
We all got along great. I didn't try to convert her, nor did she try to convert me. We ended out marriage for other reasons outside of religion.
I've got many good friends that are staunchly Christian. One even is trying to set me up with her Christian "sister".
Religion does not get thrown in the picture. We respect each other's right to our own views.
I have an employee where we have very good and thorough discussions about Christianity and Atheism. He's still staunchly Christian and I'm still staunchly Atheist (as it should be). We've never gotten into an argument either as we've respected the other's position.

So much for my "agenda" and my "grudge"

Are you red yet? I doubt it.

SaburoS · « **Reply #374 on:** May 24, 2006, 03:19:06 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by lukster
Are you presuming to tell me what I believe?

No.
It is ironic that there are those here that presume to know what I think and how I think. They cannot accept the fact that I reached a conclusion based on the facts as I see it.

Quote

Originally posted by lukster
I choose to believe in God but understand that I might be wrong which would make you right. Are you so blinded by your faith and prejudice that you won't accept what I am telling you?

If you are in fact saying that I COULD be right. Then we have no argument.
God does not exist for me. God exists for you. One takes a leap of faith, the other refuses to take that leap.

Fair enough?