Author Topic: polar-grizz  (Read 1822 times)

Offline Nilsen

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polar-grizz
« Reply #60 on: May 12, 2006, 09:15:37 AM »
sharks are the best

Offline Curval

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« Reply #61 on: May 12, 2006, 09:28:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Holden McGroin
There are animals that kill for reasons other than sustainance.

House cats kill mice and then bring the "trophy" back to the house and present it to you.  It is unnessesary to kill the mouse, but the cat gets something out of it.  The fulfillment of the hunting instinct perhaps.

Fulfillment of any primordial instinct can be pleasureable, perhaps something akin to the pleasure we get from recreational sex: an act unnesessary to the preservation of the species, but pleasurable none the less.


So let me get this straight...you are likening the pleasure of sex to the killing of animals?

"Dr. Freud...calling Dr. Freud!!!!"

Basically then you would support the indiscrimminate killing of wildlife?  Poachers should be rewarded, not punnished?  Afterall...they are just killing dumb animals and not superior beings like us humans (who, by the way, liken the pleasure of sex to killing things).

Gotcha.
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Offline AlGorithm

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polar-grizz
« Reply #62 on: May 12, 2006, 01:15:34 PM »

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #63 on: May 12, 2006, 03:34:47 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Curval
So let me get this straight...you are likening the pleasure of sex to the killing of animals?

"Dr. Freud...calling Dr. Freud!!!!"

Basically then you would support the indiscrimminate killing of wildlife?  Poachers should be rewarded, not punnished?  Afterall...they are just killing dumb animals and not superior beings like us humans (who, by the way, liken the pleasure of sex to killing things).

Gotcha.


It is a well reasoned argument that the pleasure that a hunter gets may very well be fulfillment of the ancient drive to get food, and that drive has been encoded in us since we first became a human species.   As sex drives vary among individuals, so might the hunting drive.

That the ingrained drive to hunt can be screwed up in some individuals, as can be the sex drive, that doesn't detract from the base instincts that could drive both behaviors.  

If you step back and think about it, you would notice that both behaviors stem from fullfillment of ancient behaviors. One to eat and one to procreate.  Both drives are extremely important to the survival of any species.

While I believe that the above argument has some merit, it has nothing to do with my opposition or encouragement of illegal hunting, or whether or not I believe in the justification of human dominance over nature.  Where you made that leap is within your psyche, not mine.

If you look at an earlier post of mine in this thread, you will note that I believe that the destruction of Polar Bears in the St Louis Zoo was unwarranted, even though they had devoured idiotic children who broke into the zoo and entered the Polar Bear exhibit.

This may give you some clue as to the relative importance with which I view the human / animal relationship.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 03:37:58 PM by Holden McGroin »
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Bruno

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« Reply #64 on: May 12, 2006, 03:56:27 PM »
The licensing fees that the Hunter pays, where does that money go?

Quote
sharks are the best


I read where some Norwegians prefer to kill whales over shark...

Offline Holden McGroin

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« Reply #65 on: May 12, 2006, 04:01:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bruno
The licensing fees that the Hunter pays, where does that money go?
 


In Oregon, the vast majority of the money spent on wetland rehab, wildlife management, winter feeding programs, fish hatcheries, and a host of other fish and wildlife departmant programs comes from licence, tag, and stamp fees.
Holden McGroin LLC makes every effort to provide accurate and complete information. Since humor, irony, and keen insight may be foreign to some readers, no warranty, expressed or implied is offered. Re-writing this disclaimer cost me big bucks at the lawyer’s office!

Offline Toad

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polar-grizz
« Reply #66 on: May 12, 2006, 05:00:11 PM »
Sparks,

First of all, I think the statement is that it's wrong to kill animals

"for the pure thrill of killing".

Whether or not the animal population can support the harvest never enters into the above idea. So point 2 doesn't apply to the discussion.

As for "efficient and decisive kill" either the shotgun or rifle is capable of doing that. Just as they can be incapable of doing that when one misses or the shot is poorly placed. So that makes point 1 non-applicable.

There's very little in hunting that doesn't involve some degree of skill (see point 1) and there are "wanton waste" laws that penalize failure to use the kill as food.


I'm afraid, in Curval's view, I must be Dr. Evil. While I do not hunt solely for the "thrill of killing", the kill is an integral part of hunting.

Now if I'm misunderstanding Curval and he is standing with Ortega Y Gasset who said:

"The true hunter does not hunt to kill; the hunter kills to have hunted".

that would be different.

I'll just point out that Ortega Y Gasset's statement would apply to the fellow that shot the polargrizz as well as it would to a pheasant hunter.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Shuckins

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polar-grizz
« Reply #67 on: May 12, 2006, 05:03:12 PM »
It's obvious from the contents of some of these threads which posters have spent most of their lives fighting for survival in the "concrete jungle."

Some of you people really are totally divorced from the realities of the natural world and basic human instincts, aren't you?

You've never stalked prey with a weapon in your hand, nor felt the hair on the back of your neck stand on end and all five senses shift into overdrive when that prey is sighted.  The pounding heart, shortness of breath, tunnel vision...total fixation on that prey and its movements.

Basic instinct...which some of us are privileged to experience and enjoy.  Yes, enjoy.  While you, you poor city-slobs, have those instincts buried under heavy layers of "civilization" and "environmental ethics."

As I have said in earlier threads, trying to apply emotional human morality to the amoral natural world is simple minded.

Environmental ethics have been the bane of people and wildlife in many areas of the world, often being counter-productive to their desired goals.  The $50,000 that guy spent on his polar-bear hunt pumped badly needed revenue into one of the most economically depressed areas in the Northern Hemisphere.  These hunts are extremely rare and pose no real threat to the population.

Environmental ethics makes it impossible for Native American tribes of the far North to exploit the natural resources of the areas they and their ancestors have occupied for nearly 40,000 years for their own economic benefit.  They have become economic captives of their beautiful environments.  As surely as they try to obtain permission to drill for oil or other resources in their areas, some well-fed, white, pasty-faced, flushed with money, environmentalist from the lower-48 starts some witless campaign to prevent them from doing so.

Environmentalists command about as much respect among these people as the anti-war movement did during the 1960's.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2006, 05:05:33 PM by Shuckins »

Offline Toad

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polar-grizz
« Reply #68 on: May 12, 2006, 05:07:50 PM »
NRA-ILA

Quote
Since 1937, hunters have contributed over 4 billion dollars through the Pittman-Robertson Act for the benefit of all wildlife species. These dollars have been used to purchase millions of acres of public lands.

Through over 10,000 clubs and organizations such as NRA, Ducks Unlimited, Safari Club International, National Wild Turkey Federation, Rocky Mountain Elk Foundation and Quail Unlimited, sportsmen contribute an additional $300 million each year to wildlife conservation activities.

Hunters and fishermen fund nearly 75% of the annual income for all 50 state conservation agencies. Through license fees and excise taxes on arms and gear, sportsmen contribute $200 million per year for wildlife conservation. (U.S. Fish & Wildlife Service)



Wonder how much the oh-so-correct folks that dine on domestic duck ala orange contribute to the survival of wildlife?

That's about half a billion a year for sportsmen... wonder how much the "killing animals is wrong" crowd contributes?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline tce2506

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polar-grizz
« Reply #69 on: May 12, 2006, 05:13:24 PM »
It amazes me that you non hunters think that shooting a polar bear with a rifle is easy.  FIrst off you have 60-100 pounds of gear and clothing on to keep you warm. It's cold out, the wind is blowing upwards of 30-40 mph( on normal artic days) you've probably been walking most of the day and now your guide says to shoot that bear, and you're expected to make a humane, killing shot. Yep, sounds easy to me.

You guys should also read the article. He didn't intentionally shoot a hybrid bear. His guide told him to shoot that Polar Bear. They realized when they recovered the animal that it was different and did the right thing by turning it over to the authorities.

I don't buy into the "but they're endangered" crap because they aren't.  They are officially Protected, which means that without monitoring, they could become endangered. The locals kill far more Polar bears every year that all sport hunting combined. The difference is that sport hunting generates revenue ($50,000 per animal) that is used to ensure the species is around for as long as naturally possible. Most of the usable parts of the animals taken are donated to local tribes so that nothing gets wasted.  

Folks, do a little research before you go spouting off about things you don't understand.  The typical Sport (trophy) hunter has done more to conserve and protect the animals than you folks that come here whining about someone shooting a defenseless animal. The taxes on guns, ammo, liscenses, permits, clothing etc,  go right back into preserving the land and creatures for future generations to enjoy.

that is all


:aok

Offline tce2506

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« Reply #70 on: May 12, 2006, 05:14:52 PM »
Wow, Toad, Shukins, you guys are fast!

Offline mentalguy

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« Reply #71 on: May 12, 2006, 05:33:27 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by tce2506
It amazes me that you non hunters think that shooting a polar bear with a rifle is easy.  FIrst off you have 60-100 pounds of gear and clothing on to keep you warm. It's cold out, the wind is blowing upwards of 30-40 mph( on normal artic days) you've probably been walking most of the day and now your guide says to shoot that bear, and you're expected to make a humane, killing shot. Yep, sounds easy to me.

You guys should also read the article. He didn't intentionally shoot a hybrid bear. His guide told him to shoot that Polar Bear. They realized when they recovered the animal that it was different and did the right thing by turning it over to the authorities.

I don't buy into the "but they're endangered" crap because they aren't.  They are officially Protected, which means that without monitoring, they could become endangered. The locals kill far more Polar bears every year that all sport hunting combined. The difference is that sport hunting generates revenue ($50,000 per animal) that is used to ensure the species is around for as long as naturally possible. Most of the usable parts of the animals taken are donated to local tribes so that nothing gets wasted.  

Folks, do a little research before you go spouting off about things you don't understand.  The typical Sport (trophy) hunter has done more to conserve and protect the animals than you folks that come here whining about someone shooting a defenseless animal. The taxes on guns, ammo, liscenses, permits, clothing etc,  go right back into preserving the land and creatures for future generations to enjoy.

that is all


:aok


YES, do a little research before you post, please.
Though i have never shot a bear, other animals can give you the same idea.
PFC. Corey "Mentalguy" Gibson
USMC

Offline tce2506

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« Reply #72 on: May 12, 2006, 05:40:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by mentalguy
Though i have never shot a bear, other animals can give you the same idea.


HUh??

Offline Curval

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« Reply #73 on: May 12, 2006, 05:56:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
NRA-ILA



Wonder how much the oh-so-correct folks that dine on domestic duck ala orange contribute to the survival of wildlife?

That's about half a billion a year for sportsmen... wonder how much the "killing animals is wrong" crowd contributes?


Oh PLEASE!!!

Don't try and tell me that hunters willingly fork out taxes when they buy ammo or pay license fees.  They HAVE TO if they want to get their hunting jollies.  It is law.

I'll tell you what I contribute, or more precisely "how" I contribute...I don't punch holes in wildlife for fun.
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Offline Curval

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« Reply #74 on: May 12, 2006, 06:01:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by tce2506
It amazes me that you non hunters think that shooting a polar bear with a rifle is easy.  FIrst off you have 60-100 pounds of gear and clothing on to keep you warm. It's cold out, the wind is blowing upwards of 30-40 mph( on normal artic days) you've probably been walking most of the day and now your guide says to shoot that bear, and you're expected to make a humane, killing shot. Yep, sounds easy to me.

I don't give a flying poop whether it is easy or not.

You guys should also read the article. He didn't intentionally shoot a hybrid bear. His guide told him to shoot that Polar Bear. They realized when they recovered the animal that it was different and did the right thing by turning it over to the authorities.

I never said the guy intentionally shot a hybrid.  

I don't buy into the "but they're endangered" crap because they aren't.  They are officially Protected, which means that without monitoring, they could become endangered. The locals kill far more Polar bears every year that all sport hunting combined. The difference is that sport hunting generates revenue ($50,000 per animal) that is used to ensure the species is around for as long as naturally possible. Most of the usable parts of the animals taken are donated to local tribes so that nothing gets wasted.

Who are the animals being protected from?  The natives?  So the good old sport hunter is really the hero?  Goodness me.  

Folks, do a little research before you go spouting off about things you don't understand.  The typical Sport (trophy) hunter has done more to conserve and protect the animals than you folks that come here whining about someone shooting a defenseless animal. The taxes on guns, ammo, liscenses, permits, clothing etc,  go right back into preserving the land and creatures for future generations to enjoy.

See my reply to Toad.

that is all
Some will fall in love with life and drink it from a fountain that is pouring like an avalanche coming down the mountain