Author Topic: Attack and ACM Lingo  (Read 685 times)

Offline Hap

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Attack and ACM Lingo
« on: May 15, 2006, 01:02:31 PM »
Please rectify where i err.

B and Z: fire and zoom up

Turn and Burn: turn and burn g's? (i've heard it used but am unsure of what the fellow stating the phrase means)

Knife Fight: i don't know.  I've heard "slash fight," and again what it describes seens a Boom and Zoom variant?  Probably not.  Please clarify if you will.

Stall Fighting: does the name say it all?  Fly soyou're on the edge of falling out of the sky, and your opponent 's control surfaces fail to adequately control their plane prior to yours.

Engergy Fighting: maintianing or ganing an energy superiority.

hap

Offline Murdr

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« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2006, 03:22:33 PM »
Yep, Boom and Zoom.  Dive, shoot, zoom, repeat if nessasary.  Only give up separation for the passing shot.

T&B- An all out turn fight, consiting of both participants trying to gain gun angles on the other.  Burn what?  It's open to some interpretation.  The casual interpretation might be that you are trying to turn to burn the other guy.  However, I would say what you are really burning is Energy.  When you and your opponet commit to an all out turn fight, thoughts of E conservation are usually on the back burner.  In fact you may even have to shed E in the process to preserve your position in the fight.

Knife fight, and T&B are pretty much the same thing.  Although a "knife fight" usually indicates extended periods of maneuvering with very little separation between the opponents, where advantages can shift back and forth quickly, and a lucky snap shot can end the fight.  Basically, an up close and personal fight.

Stall fighting can be exactly as you described.  Two opponents turning circles on the edge of stall, and going over the edge can be a fatal error.  It can also describe another situation.  Where the lead opponent goes vertical and stalls over, while the trail aviods the stall path of the lead (to stay out of his guns), and himself stalls over above where the lead can recover level flight, and then falls in trail behind his opponent again.  The process can go on and on until someone makes a mistake.  This type of stall fight can end up looking like a U or like a scissors turned on its side.

E fighting?  Your definition sounds good enough to me.

Offline Hap

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« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2006, 03:52:38 PM »
Thanks M!  Will have to pop into the training arena soon.  What i've been reading of it reminds me of the old AW Training School.  

Would be fun to learn and fulfilling to support the effort to teach others.

hap

Offline Pooface

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« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2006, 05:28:13 PM »
what murdr said :)

although i find knife fighting is most often the way to describe the fighting style of the german planes, the 109's and 190's just seem to ride a knife edge, fast maneuvers, multiple changes in advantage and position, and nothing but very fast snapshots if you can get them. it's not only for german planes but it's what they seem to do best, and the close up fighting style of the german rides is really the empitome of a knifefight:aok


and yeah, energy fighting, BFM's, trying to get a shot while also trying to gain energy on the opponent so that you can kill him quick and easy, eg. spiral climbing above a heavier plane or pulling multiple immelmans after the headon merge in order to gain as much energy as possible and hopefully grab more than the other guy, giving you an advantage to work from.

stall fighting and TnB are pretty much the same, although TnB isnt always right on the edge of the stall:aok

hope that helps;)

Offline Hap

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« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2006, 05:31:53 PM »
thank-you poo!  i've read descriptions that differ enough substantively that i wanted to try to gain a clear understanding.

hap

Offline Mace2004

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« Reply #5 on: May 31, 2006, 03:46:33 PM »
Don't read too much into slang.  There are really only two types of ACM fights, Energy and Angles.  The other terms you're using are slang for different tactics or maybe specific conditions of these two fights.

In a training scenario (specifically 1v1) which you use (Energy or Angles) is dependant on the strengths of your aircraft versus your opponent (max instantaneous and sustained turnrates, turn radius, energy addition rates, bleed rates, slow speed stabilityand maneuverability, departure resistance, etc) and the tactical situation (e advantage, defensive or offensive start, etc).  An F4 vs an F14 would have to e fight if he wanted any chance to win since "slow" in a Phantom was anything less than about 450 KIAS and his turn radius was the size of Arizona (the state, not the ship) while a Tomcat would be capable of fighting below 200 kts.

There are two reasons to train for angles fights.  It teaches you to maneuver at the edge of stall (the left side of the envelope) which is very different from corner velocity and above (the right side of the envelope).  Being skilled in flying anywhere in the envelope is essential and, despite some common misconceptions an e fight can include maneuvering at the edge of stall.  For instance, in an e fight you might do an unloaded vertical extension for vertical separation and then reverse over the top right on the edge of stall with your flaps and slats hanging out.  It's not a "stall fight" (a term I never heard until AH), just a technique to reverse after getting the maximum possible separation.  The second reason (and most tactically relevant) is that e fights tend to degrade to angles fights and an angles fight can get real slow (a "knife fight") real fast.  

In a real world scenario with multiple bandits, inperfect SA, SAMs and AAA an "angles" fight (or getting slow at all such as the vertical reversal) is near suicide and is to be avoided.  In an e fight, you maintain your e and options.  With e it's possible to disengage when things aren't going right and bug out for home or get separation and then re-enter the fight ("redefine" the fight).  It also gives you the essential maneuverability required to defeat a guns or AAM shot.  

E fights, without discipline, almost always degrade into angles fights over time when a pilot thinks that if he gives up just a little more e he'll gain a few more angles or if he really becomes overly aggressive and decides to "sell it all" (sell all his e using his max instantaneous turn rate) to get a kill shot.  If he misses he's slow and doesn't have much of an option to disengage especially if he's low (low, slow and out of ideas).  Now it's a "knife fight".  An in-close, slow speed angles fight to the death where neither aircraft has much of a chance of bugging out because there just isn't enough separation, and airplanes are slower than bullets so you live and die by the angles.  Typically we're talking scissors maneuvers and lots and lots of rudder and afterburner and very few options.

"B&Z" uses elements of an energy fight but is just a tactic, it's not BFM and it only works when you have the e advantage.  The correct RL name for this tactic is a "slashing attack".  What people in AH call a "stall fight" is just an slow speed angles fight.  A flat scissors is the best example, two airplanes riding on the edge of stall trying to get the other guy to fly out in front.  Given two similar aircraft, he who rides the edge better wins (unless a wingman shows up and ends it).  "Turn & Burn" is common slang for any ACM engagement with lots of g ("Turn") and afterburner (the "Burn").  Don't know if the term was used in WWII but it could have been if you consider "burning your e" but then e wasn't defined as a distinct element or until after the Korean War so it's doubtful.

Mace
« Last Edit: May 31, 2006, 04:02:35 PM by Mace2004 »
Mace
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Offline Murdr

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« Reply #6 on: May 31, 2006, 05:17:57 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Mace2004
It's not a "stall fight" (a term I never heard until AH)
It pre-dates AH, and isnt specific to AH either.

Offline -pjk--

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« Reply #7 on: June 01, 2006, 04:31:21 PM »
Nice to see post like mace2004 did.
Simple and clear A2A fight "rules" all beiing same= Energy and Angles= your positon/E against  opponents Energy and Angles= his position/E and  the goal =survive/get kill  or other hand, get killed.
Turn means 0(exxept both screwd), speed is number 1, roll  beats turn, climb is saving E, diving is using E.

Nice to see it put so readable Mace   WTG
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Offline Murdr

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« Reply #8 on: June 01, 2006, 05:10:16 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by -pjk--
climb is saving E, diving is using E.

Not quite.

Offline -pjk--

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« Reply #9 on: June 01, 2006, 05:27:08 PM »
A bit of simplising;)
Heh, i reread it 2 times before let it out and failed a bit;)
NP, but  mace put it out simple and readable/understandbale..???
Language barriel hit, but try this in finnish ;-)
My point as same as his, do not trust your turn/climb/roll..use those  if you have lost your E advantage ;-)
 and forgive my lack of using english  language .

Beeing trainer Murdr, you should  know what i tryed say in my post anyway:)
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Offline Murdr

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« Reply #10 on: June 01, 2006, 05:42:54 PM »
:) I understand.

Offline cav58d

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« Reply #11 on: June 01, 2006, 05:49:52 PM »
IMO is "In my opinion" and its one of the most used phrases over channel 200
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Offline Panzzer

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« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2006, 05:52:12 PM »
While pjk's English might not be perfect, you should see the guy handle his 109, especially his gunnery. :)

Sorry puujiiko, just had to say that so the people can fear a lone 109K-4 in the skies. ;)
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