Author Topic: Bf 110 "myths"  (Read 3270 times)

Offline tikky

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Bf 110 "myths"
« on: May 16, 2006, 10:45:39 PM »
Bf 110 performed very poorly in Battle of Britain, it was slow, unmanuverable, and helpless against Hurricanes and Spitfires


110 was no slouch, it was faster than hurricane and spits at low alts.  110 was good enough in manuvarability because of wing slats.
Prior the infamous "Goering's orders",  the 110s were free to roam around and get at higher altitudes.  When LW bomber losses started to go high goering ordered fighters (including 110s) stay close to bombers and never leave them.  This means 110s are forced to cruise along with the bombers and leaves them unprepared against the higher spits and hurricanes.  I think what made 110 a faliure in BoB is they were not allowed to roam around and this killed the 110s in BoB.

Offline Urchin

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Bf 110 "myths"
« Reply #1 on: May 16, 2006, 10:58:54 PM »
I've seen a couple charts that indicate the Bf-110C4 actually had a smaller turn radius than the Bf-109E4.  The E4 had a higher turn rate though.

Offline Squire

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Bf 110 "myths"
« Reply #2 on: May 17, 2006, 02:30:05 AM »
I can see the whole BoB bing re argued for the 10,000th time, and if it is, I wont be in it :)

...Despite that, and trying to stay clear of rabid-fan based ravings from both camps, there is a measure of truth to the claim that the Bf 110s reputation was unduly tarnished in the BoB, imho.

A few things 1st though, for starters, the BoB Bf 110 was almost entirely the Bf 110C-3, not the Bf 110C-4/b which we have in AH, and has the more powerfull DB601N engines. So, its a slower, and less capabale version than you see in AH. Just to make that clear.  

It was certainly not in the same manueverbility class as a single engined fighter, ala Spitfire and Hurricane, or Dewotine, or P-40B, or Yak-1, wing slats or no. It did have good firepower (2 x 20mm MGFF and 4 x 7.9s)and range, but its climb, speed and agility was not stellar when compared to other types.  

As far as "Goerings Order", I think too much is made of that since the first 2 of the 3 stages of the BoB (Kanalkampf and Adlertag) were not tainted by that. The close escort directive was issued in the final phase of the battle, the air assault on London, and was derived from the over generous estimates that the LW gave to their bomber crews on the state of the RAFs fighter defenses, resulting in the bomber crews complaining about the level of interceptions they received (in relation to what they were led to expect), prompting Goering to eventually, and unfairly, chide the Jagdwaffe about not doing a better job, and then interfering himself.

There were only two countries in 1940 that had what we could consider an "integrated air defense system", with radar to back it up, and those two countries were Germany and Britain. The Polish and French campaigns saw the LW operate against countries with no such system, and in the case of Poland, an obsolete air force. Vs Britain, they had the problem of a country that could play defense much better, with radar, a decent aircraft industry to back it up losses, and more modern types of fighters to deploy.

Fighter sweeps were ignored where at all possible by the RAF, and this was made possible by the use of radar. They did not have to resort to standing patrols to protect air space, this is the key. Without radar, fighter sweeps would be much harder to ignore (you end up in a fight by the time you know its there), and their time in the air is drastically cut down. This is one reason the 110s did better over France and Poland than Britain.

...so, back to the Bf 110. It had the same problem other LW combat types had over Britain, it flew blind, with no friendly radar to guide it, while the RAF could see the bigger picture, and focus on intercepting bomber raids it felt was worth the trouble, and trying to avoid the rest. It had greater range, but it was still operating over hostile territory, and it still had to protect the bombers they were tasked to escort.

The real litmus test for the Bf 110 though, imho, is the fact that veteran LW fighter leaders, like Osterkamp and Molders, did not request that it take over escort and sweep duties from the 109, if in fact it was as good a fighter, then its longer range made it an obvious choice to take the brunt of fighter ops over Britain, since the biggest problem for the 109 was lack of range, but that was never seriously considered, because its limitations as a fighter had been experienced by September 1940. Even if you want to lay the blame on Goering, the fact remains the LW considered the 110 as the 2nd best fighter they had, not the equal to the 109, and I guess they would be the ones to know.

In summary, its shortcomings can be traced to the difficulty of the campaign, as well as its performance drawbacks. In other words, it gets a mixed review. Was it a POS? no, was it as good as a 109 or a Spit/Hurricane as a straight fighter? clearly not. The truth lies in the middle, as most truths do. I will say it is a measure of the 110 that it served untill wars end in various capacities, and served on all fronts, so it obviously had its uses.

I posted a lot longer than I intended, oh well.  ;)
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Offline BUG_EAF322

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Bf 110 "myths"
« Reply #3 on: May 17, 2006, 02:55:16 AM »
A good thing is germany sended its elite pilots in this thing over england.
:aok

Offline Charge

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Bf 110 "myths"
« Reply #4 on: May 17, 2006, 02:59:59 AM »
I have ofter wondered about the defensive armament on Bf110 and Ju87. A single mg is not much of a threat to an attacking fighter unless the planes are stacked tightly and with concentrated fire. Some (<-note!) of the bad experiences of LW probably was due to too scattered defensive fire and too much confidence in defensive armament.

A defensive gun, IMO, needs to be at least .50 to be of use against an attacking fighter. The later 110 model had MG81Z, IIRC, which combined two high ROF (2x1100) mgs but the hitting power was probably not too good even then. Of course the tailgunner was handy for dive bombers and JABOs because he observed the rear quarter and warned the pilot of any threats.

Reading Rudel's book I noticed that he practically never relied on his tail gunner to fend of the enemy if he had the possibility to maneuver. That may be the reason why enemy fighters never shot him down.

That leads me to think that many german a/c with TG could have saved some valuable dead weight by simply deleting the rear seat and defensive armament altogether and providing better rear view for the pilot. :p

-C+

"A good thing is germany sended its elite pilots in this thing over england."

What a bright comment again, Bug. Almost unintelligible and nothing to do with the topic. :aok
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 03:02:14 AM by Charge »
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Offline Kev367th

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Bf 110 "myths"
« Reply #5 on: May 17, 2006, 03:08:52 AM »
Wasn't the 110 "twin engined fighter" eventually given a fighter escort it performed so poorly?

As for higher alts, what alts do you think the BoB took place in?
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 03:11:15 AM by Kev367th »
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Offline Angus

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Bf 110 "myths"
« Reply #6 on: May 17, 2006, 03:09:37 AM »
The LW sent 110's as escorts over the North sea didn't they?
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Debonair

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Bf 110 "myths"
« Reply #7 on: May 17, 2006, 04:21:58 AM »
ja, it would take at least two dozen 37mm shells to down rudel, he was teh pwnage
roflmaoomfglol

Offline Oldman731

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Bf 110 "myths"
« Reply #8 on: May 17, 2006, 07:10:25 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Squire
The real litmus test for the Bf 110 though, imho, is the fact that veteran LW fighter leaders, like Osterkamp and Molders, did not request that it take over escort and sweep duties from the 109, if in fact it was as good a fighter, then its longer range made it an obvious choice to take the brunt of fighter ops over Britain, since the biggest problem for the 109 was lack of range, but that was never seriously considered, because its limitations as a fighter had been experienced by September 1940. Even if you want to lay the blame on Goering, the fact remains the LW considered the 110 as the 2nd best fighter they had, not the equal to the 109, and I guess they would be the ones to know.

This is a great point.

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Offline BUG_EAF322

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Bf 110 "myths"
« Reply #9 on: May 17, 2006, 07:19:52 AM »
Yes charge but the thruth is the speziale piloten where only allowed by the LW in their overated plane.
And that's not meant about their acm skills but more flight hours and better navigational skills.

So u intelli mensa im not talkin about the 109 or 111 yep about the 110

Ur so intelligent u had to push ur C+ there

im impressed
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 07:24:45 AM by BUG_EAF322 »

Offline Tony Williams

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Bf 110 "myths"
« Reply #10 on: May 17, 2006, 07:34:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Charge
That leads me to think that many german a/c with TG could have saved some valuable dead weight by simply deleting the rear seat and defensive armament altogether and providing better rear view for the pilot.

OTOH, I have read that the majority of planes shot down in WW2 never saw the plane which attacked them - they were bounced from behind. This particularly applied to fighters. So you could argue that in the really big fighters - like the P-47 - they might have done better with a rear 'spotter' behind the pilot, possibly armed with a flexibly-mounted .50. The added weight would be a very small fraction of the weight of a P-47, and the pilot would be able to focus on his job instead of forever looking behind him.

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Offline Charge

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Bf 110 "myths"
« Reply #11 on: May 17, 2006, 07:57:38 AM »
"The added weight would be a very small fraction of the weight of a P-47, and the pilot would be able to focus on his job instead of forever looking behind him."

Well, yeah, but the rear guy also needs a seat and usually some armour, ammo, added oxygen capacity etc. So the weight would build up of many things than just pilot with his gun and ammo. it could also mean that the a/c structure could become weaker because of addititonal opening towards rear of the a/c, and the more light the gun mouont the more the fire would scatter.

What I was thinkin was the Mosquito concept against the ME410 concept, although their use was much different. I wonder how much faster or maneuverable the ME410 would have been without weight of the rear firing guns and "Otto" with his equipment.


"Yes charge but the thruth is the speziale piloten where only allowed by the LW in their overated plane."

I thought "the best of LW" flew bombers? AFAIK the division at the beginning of the training was "fighters or bombers", not "single engine or multi engine" ?

"ja, it would take at least two dozen 37mm shells to down rudel, he was teh pwnage roflmaoomfglol"

One.

-C+
« Last Edit: May 17, 2006, 08:04:09 AM by Charge »
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Offline Angus

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Bf 110 "myths"
« Reply #12 on: May 17, 2006, 08:49:37 AM »
Well there was this reason for the teamwork wasn't it!
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline Angus

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Bf 110 "myths"
« Reply #13 on: May 17, 2006, 09:05:16 AM »
Oh, again about the 110.
Is there any reason why a 110C rolls better than a 109E????
It was very interesting to carry out the flight trials at Rechlin with the Spitfire and the Hurricane. Both types are very simple to fly compared to our aircraft, and childishly easy to take-off and land. (Werner Mölders)

Offline joeblogs

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rear seat on a fighter plane is a bad idea
« Reply #14 on: May 17, 2006, 12:24:16 PM »
Much more efficient to have a wing man and some squadron discipline. I don't think there were any 2 seat fighters during the war that could hold there own against the better 1 seat opposition fielded by the opponent. It certainly never worked for the Royal Navy even when their A/C got big engines.

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Quote
Originally posted by Tony Williams
OTOH, I have read that the majority of planes shot down in WW2 never saw the plane which attacked them - they were bounced from behind. This particularly applied to fighters. So you could argue that in the really big fighters - like the P-47 - they might have done better with a rear 'spotter' behind the pilot, possibly armed with a flexibly-mounted .50. The added weight would be a very small fraction of the weight of a P-47, and the pilot would be able to focus on his job instead of forever looking behind him.

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