Hello Nov.23rd, 1939

[lukster]

Originally posted by midnight Target
First of all your lack of knowledge of Iranian history is showing like the crack of your bellybutton when you try to bend over for another beer. Iran was basically ruled by BP until they attempted to be democratic and all.... that was squashed by the CIA back in the 50's. Maybe you can pull some other facts outta your nether region later on.

This new Iranian law is all about power corrupting. In this case it is the power of religion. Religion has a stranglehold on that government and it MUST act accordingly. It still stands as a great example of religion in government run amock.

"Sure" you'll probably say after you drop a few more bombs on the discourse. But it is about power not religion (like Hitler not like The Ayatolla). But the power in this case comes from religion... not from an individual dictator or even some atheistic dogma like Communism or National Socialism. So you can't separate them, and you are wrong once again.

Why be so general? It is one specific religion in the case of Iran and so many other theocracies. Please give me an example of a christian theocracy and we'll compare individual liberties.

[Hangtime]

The Nazis held one theory quite high. Hitler himself may have been the author of that one. ok:
"A democratic nation will never be able to fight a hard war. The military will not be hard enough" (Very much from memory so forgive me, but the meaning is on spot).
He proved wrong. And he had to swallow this the hard way.

and he was almost correct, angus. The British slogged on for nearly two years alone while a pacifist and isolationist america agreed it wanted no part of another european war.

It took the japanese attack on pearl harbor to get FDR the green light.. and even then he would have been forced to deal with japan first had not Hitler declared war on America in support of their treaty with japan.

Since then, I've seen america repeatedly again refuse to accept a 'war footing' when it opposed a foreign power. We're now 5 vears into the current 'War'.. and we have in no way adopted a 'war' mentality or footing on the home front.

And this one will end with either a stalemate or withdrawl, just like all our other wars since WWII.

I despise us, sometimes. The moniker of 'weak willed democracy' is not un-fitting.

[Mini D]

Originally posted by midnight Target
First of all your lack of knowledge of Iranian history is showing like the crack of your bellybutton when you try to bend over for another beer. Iran was basically ruled by BP until they attempted to be democratic and all.... that was squashed by the CIA back in the 50's. Maybe you can pull some other facts outta your nether region later on.

OK... 60 years. I think you're forgetting just how long ago that is. The shah was as secular as it gets... you tell me who was worse. I'm sure you'll get arguments from alot of people on that one.

This new Iranian law is all about power corrupting. In this case it is the power of religion. Religion has a stranglehold on that government and it MUST act accordingly. It still stands as a great example of religion in government run amock.

And this is different from the shah in what way? Oh... now it's under the guise of religion so it's an example of the follies of religion... though it was the same before a religious sect took over and will be the same after the next overthrow. Religion is not the problem here. It's just something that rubs you the wrong way so you pretend it is.

"Sure" you'll probably say after you drop a few more bombs on the discourse. But it is about power not religion (like Hitler not like The Ayatolla). But the power in this case comes from religion... not from an individual dictator or even some atheistic dogma like Communism or National Socialism. So you can't separate them, and you are wrong once again.

The power comes from the fact that they are in control and had the means to get it. Once again, religion isn't the problem here. The fact that these people are straying so far from the cores of Islam highlight that. You are mistaking the actions of men for the philosophy of religion. You are absolutely wrong when you do that.

You go to the next level, revealingly so, when you say there's no place for religion in government. You do realize that statement is pretty much in line with the Nazis, Communists and the people you're using as "proof" of your statement? Maybe we could just make anyone religious wear a stripe on their shirt so we know not to let them into any position of power. Yes... that's the only sure way to keep religion separate from government.

[midnight Target]

Ah but the crux of this issue is NOT the identification of Jews or Christians in Iran. It is the fact that the laws must follow the religion (ordering "muslim" clothing) and the only way for the government of Iran to stay true to its religion and still try to allow some sort of religious freedom (to wear what you want) is to implement this stupid rule. It is all about trying to balance democratic rule with a theocratic power base. It just don't work.

[Hap]

hap

[Flatbar]

There are conflicting reports on this.

http://www.canada.com/nationalpost/news/story.html?id=6626a0fa-99de-4f1e-aebe-bb91af82abb3

Could it be that the same people who declaired that the Iraqi's were pulling babies out of incubators and tossing them on the floor and left to die are the ones delivering this 'story'?


One things for sure, who ever 'they' are, their message will have their belivers in the audience and nothing, not even the true facts, will convience them that the propoganda war against Iran is in full swing.

As Yogi Barra once said, 'It's like deja vu, all over again'.



edit to add linky

[Mini D]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Ah but the crux of this issue is NOT the identification of Jews or Christians in Iran. It is the fact that the laws must follow the religion (ordering "muslim" clothing) and the only way for the government of Iran to stay true to its religion and still try to allow some sort of religious freedom (to wear what you want) is to implement this stupid rule. It is all about trying to balance democratic rule with a theocratic power base. It just don't work.

You're an awfully back and forth *****... aren't you?

The crux is that a group of people are in control of the country, not the government. There is no dillution of power, no checks, no ballances. Any government based on these priniciples will run the inherant risks of the corruption brought on by power.

For some reason, you seem to think religion causes this. I think you're wrong and I believe history proves that.

[Fishu]

Originally posted by Angus
The Nazis held one theory quite high. Hitler himself may have been the author of that one. ok:
"A democratic nation will never be able to fight a hard war. The military will not be hard enough" (Very much from memory so forgive me, but the meaning is on spot).
He proved wrong. And he had to swallow this the hard way.

Except most of their fightning was against russians, who weren't democratic.

[midnight Target]

Wha?

It's the people in power that are the problem, not the religion? Even though the religion is the basis for that power? It is the lack of checks and balances that are the problem? Not the fact that religion HAS NO checks and balances.


You're confused.

[asilvia]

Whenever a government tries to pass a law with direct references to religion we have a problem.

"The law mandates the government to make sure that all Iranians wear "standard Islamic garments" designed to remove ethnic and class distinctions reflected in clothing, and to eliminate "the influence of the infidel" on the way Iranians, especially, the young dress. It also envisages separate dress codes for religious minorities, Christians, Jews and Zoroastrians, who will have to adopt distinct colour schemes to make them identifiable in public. The new codes would enable Muslims to easily recognize non-Muslims so that they can avoid shaking hands with them by mistake, and thus becoming najis (unclean)."


Does anyone else find this disturbing????????

[Momus--]

I'm betting this story is bogus. Any takers?

[AquaShrimp]

Aren't we (the U.S.) already fighting Iran?  I thought most of the insurgents in Iraq were Iranian.

[Momus--]

The dress code program being discussed in parliament has no relation to religious minorities. These reports are a flat out lie,” says Iranian lawmaker Imad Efrog, who proposed the “National Uniform Law.”

On Friday the Canadian Newspaper National Post reported that Jews would have to wear yellow armbands, based on the claims of Iranian expatriates living in Canada. Shortly after the article was printed, the newspaper backed off from the report and published a second article expressing reservations about the report’s credibility. However, the flames were already ignited as the story quickly spread around world news media.

Source

IRAN'S only Jewish MP strongly denied reports in a Canadian newspaper overnight that Iran may force non-Muslims to wear coloured badges in public so they can be identified... "This report is a complete fabrication and is totally false," Maurice Motammed said in Tehran. "It is a lie, and the people who invented it wanted to make political gain" by doing so.

Source

Looks like you can file this one in the same place as the Kuwati incubator story, mobile Iraqi WMD labs, mincing machines in Iraqi jails, Iraqi WMD being flown to Syria etc etc.

[AWMac]

I believe in "Short Cuts" if Iran wants Nukes and the ability to build them, then why don't we support them?  I mean we can give them one or two.. from 30,000 feet in the early morning hours as they put on their "traditional Islamic Clothes".

  I'm getting so frikken tired of the crap the USA is going thru at the time. Toss the UN outta the US... send them to France or Germany. Let Europe foot the bill. UN is soo worthless. Name the last thing that the UN did good? Yeah I thought so.

  Instead of half stepping here we should just look at it as it is! Welcome to WWIII. This is not a single War it's Global.  You Libs need to pull yer heads out and realize it's real.  Or do you wait until it knocks on your back door to make it personal?

  Never pet a Rabid Dog. You put them down.

Mac

[Mini D]

Originally posted by midnight Target
It's the people in power that are the problem, not the religion? Even though the religion is the basis for that power? It is the lack of checks and balances that are the problem? Not the fact that religion HAS NO checks and balances.

The "basis" for that power? What was the basis for the shah's power? How much differently did he handle things?

You make it sound as if these things would be different in Iran if it weren't the religous in charge. How much different was it in Iraq? That was a secular government.  Where the people better off? Where the individual religions better off? Did the nation want to see Israel destroyed? Come now MT... it's only the religous that want this... right? I mean, it's all about religion, right?

Sheesh.. you have such a bad case of "it must be religion" tunnel vission that you completely ignore everything else actually HOPING that's the real problem. Talk about confused.