Author Topic: ACLU and NOW support mother who drowned her kids  (Read 1104 times)

Offline miko2d

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ACLU and NOW support mother who drowned her kids
« Reply #15 on: August 28, 2001, 12:09:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
...the Russian immigrant that killed his family...

 Calling a Ukrainian (size of Texas, population 50 mil) "Russian" will not make you any friends in Ukraine.

Offline miko2d

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ACLU and NOW support mother who drowned her kids
« Reply #16 on: August 28, 2001, 12:33:00 PM »
Come to think of it logically...

 I support the death penalty because
1. It is a revenge for the wrong commited.
2. It is an absolutely reliable method to make sure that this criminal will never threaten any other member of society.
 Also it is (or supposed to be) cheaper then lifelong confinement
3. it serves as a detriment to others thinking of similar crime. (admittedly, execution would better serve this purpose if it was cruel and unusual, like being eaten alive by rats, or something and televised...)

=====
1. Do the relatives want revenge? Does her husband want her dead? Do the grandparents? If they do not, nobody has higher claim to vengeance. So that one is not valid.

2. She killed her children while obviously in distress linked to common medical condition. She did not plan to get away with the crime, she called police and she admitted everything. Are there any reasons to believe that she is dangerous to anyone else? Other children or adults? The after-birth pshychosis is pretty specific. She may be likely to commit suicide but harm someone else? Naah...

3. You suspect your wife is depressed and may be thinking of killing your children and hope that the example of execution will stop her? Hardly. If you suspected that, you would have probably already made an appointment with a psychiatrist and/or made sure she is never alone.

 So why would you want her dead? She did not drink and drive knowing in advance that the risk of hurting someone increases. All she did was being born with defective brain and having children. Hopefully psychiatrists will at some time be able to detect such condition before the person snaps.

 miko

Offline Ripsnort

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ACLU and NOW support mother who drowned her kids
« Reply #17 on: August 28, 2001, 12:37:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by miko2d:


 Calling a Ukrainian (size of Texas, population 50 mil) "Russian" will not make you any friends in Ukraine.

How about "Eastern Europe"...I get them all mixed up since the wall came down....by the way, you can call me American, North American, Continental America, no way would I ever be so sensitive as to have someone call me anything but late for dinner.

Offline fd ski

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ACLU and NOW support mother who drowned her kids
« Reply #18 on: August 28, 2001, 12:39:00 PM »
miko you damn liberal !!!
This is U S of A and we're gonna string the squeak up high and shoot her while she's chocking. Then she will be burned at the stake and her smoldering remains will be chopped to pieces and taken to all 4 ends of England.. oh wait... wrong film...

Woman is mentaly ill. Killing her will achieve nothing. What she did was wrong, very wrong. If she had committed that crime in sane mind and with premeditation - then fine - fry her. If it is an effect of her mental state - then off to the hospital she should go.

Nazi germany had a standard operating procedure of killing the mentaly handicapped since they were "weak".
It does make sense until you have one of those in your family....

Offline Ripsnort

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ACLU and NOW support mother who drowned her kids
« Reply #19 on: August 28, 2001, 12:48:00 PM »
There's a big difference between "Bouts with depression" and mentally handicapped.  One cannot operate a normal life whatsoever, the former is fully coherent, living a normal life, and goes off the deep end.

Although this is not a death penalty discussion, its my opinion that she gets death since it was, by all accounts I've read, premeditated murder, and attempts to do this in the past were prevelent.

Offline miko2d

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ACLU and NOW support mother who drowned her kids
« Reply #20 on: August 28, 2001, 01:28:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
...by the way, you can call me American, North American, Continental America, no way would I ever be so sensitive...

 Calling a ukrainian "russian" is more comparable with calling you "englishman" except that we americans speak (arguably) the same language and we do not hate englishmen.   :)

 On the issue of the woman:
Although this is not a death penalty discussion, its my opinion that she gets death since it was, by all accounts I've read, premeditated murder, and attempts to do this in the past were prevelent.
 This is exactly the case where court and professional experts are needed to decide if she really was sick and did not get help she needed despite previous signs.
 So we better not make stupid all-confident statements. There are provisions for mentall illness in the laws going back centuries - it's not a recent innovations of liberals. May well be it's one of those cases. It would not have seen as controversial for us if she just snapped and slapped her children silly instead of drowning them, but for her it would be all the same. When person is irrational, his/her actions are not measured and logical.

 miko

Offline Westy MOL

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ACLU and NOW support mother who drowned her kids
« Reply #21 on: August 28, 2001, 01:34:00 PM »
I was horrified and quite effected by what that monster did to her 5 kids back then. These groups climbing aboard some trumped up morality wagon is just putrid vile on top of the initial act.

 Makes me want to move to Fiji.

Westy

Offline Ripsnort

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ACLU and NOW support mother who drowned her kids
« Reply #22 on: August 28, 2001, 01:37:00 PM »
Agree with mental illness Miko, except the last 40 years the left has made it practice to exploit these cases and convincing jury's that things such as "PMS" is why she killed her husband, etc. etc.

And I am an englishman, I speak english, I'm a man (last I checked anyway) and my Grandfather came from England.  :)  Why you folks are in such a hurry to divide yourselfs from your current countrymen (when it was one big happy USSR) is beyond me. :)

Offline Ripsnort

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ACLU and NOW support mother who drowned her kids
« Reply #23 on: August 28, 2001, 01:40:00 PM »
.and I might add, if you are a citizen of the U.S., you are an American.  Read it and weep.  :) USA, just one big melting pot of different nationalities.  :)

Offline Fury

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ACLU and NOW support mother who drowned her kids
« Reply #24 on: August 28, 2001, 03:24:00 PM »
From Rip's link:

"Most are rallying behind Yates because, they said, she suffers from depression and psychosis. They said she needs medical treatment rather than be sent to prison or sentenced to death."

These people want to get her off without punishment.  This is not a death penalty discussion.

Another quote:

"Yates has pleaded not guilty by reason of insanity to two charges of capital murder. Her family said she suffers and has been treated for severe depression.....Fowler urged Rosenthal to reconsider, adding that with medication Yates' condition could be controlled. Yates had been on a series of anti-psychotic and anti-depressive drugs, her husband, Russell Yates, has said.  "

Suffers and has been treated for severe depression?  So give her more treatment that hasn't worked? And what about leaving a person like that alone with your kids?  Anyone who was close to her and knew her story well enough is guilty by association if they paint such a bad picture about her.

This whole story makes me sick.  Yea, she didn't know what she was doing and couldn't help herself, and nobody else was smart enough to realize that leaving kids with someone that bad off might not be a good idea, and oh yea, the dog told her to do it.

<disgust>

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Fury ]

Offline miko2d

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ACLU and NOW support mother who drowned her kids
« Reply #25 on: August 28, 2001, 04:55:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Ripsnort:
Agree with mental illness Miko, except the last 40 years the left has made it practice to exploit these cases and convincing jury's that things such as "PMS" is why she killed her husband, etc. etc.
True. But scum will always exploit things to their advantage. That is not a reason for rational and honest people to automatically jump to the opposite side on every issue where they are involved. Even a broken clock displays correct time twice a day (if only we knew when).
  The law is the law. If some objectionable people support it, it is not a reason to object.

 Westy: I was horrified and quite effected by what that monster did to her 5 kids back then.
 These groups climbing aboard some trumped up morality wagon is just putrid vile on top of the initial act.

 Unlike a driver who knows well in advance that exceeding speed limit or drinking or changing lanes without signalling subjects many other people to risk of death of injury, an insane person is not rational and not in control of his/her actions, hence cannot be guilty or morally responcible.
 So the point here is wether she was insane or not. I think many of the people involved in her defence have enough knowlege about mentall ilnesses to believe that she really was insane and should not stand trial.
 Those people want to see justice served and do not want ignorant people like some of you here to kill her just because they do not like what she did.

 There are many depressed people out there but severe cases happen so rarely that her relatives could not think of her committing such an act. I would hardly accuse them of negligence. I am sure that henceforward relatives/psychiatrists of other post-partum depressed women will keep better track of them and their medication intake.

 miko

P.S. I am not a bleeding-heart liberal. Far from it. I am a strong proponent of death penalty, just not in this case. I mean, if she was rational, she should die but I do not know if she is and I know enough that her story seems reasonable to me. That is why we have due process.

 It seems silly to me to punish people for the result of the actions if the intent is what's important. If some wannabe-killer is a bad shooter or, worse, maimed a victim for life instead of killing him/her, how come he gets away easier?
 So a guy who changes lanes without signalling while other cars present should be treated as attempted manslaughter and at least given a few years in jail. But the law is the law.

P.P.S. Talking of negligence. I recently read general Dolittle's (famous B-25 Tokyo raid) book.
 The strategic B-17 bombers under his command were given a task of close support of ground troops in Europe. They had to fly long the front line and bomb german positions few hundred feet from the allied positions with wind blowing toward the allies.
 The leading group accidentally bombed the allied location (ammo dump?) that caused a lot of smoke. All subsequent groups (scores of bombers) did not care to check their own locations and confirm target acquisition but just bombed around the smoke. Hundreds of dead US soldiers in minutes.
 All responcible for that gross negligence were given strict talking-to.

Offline Ripsnort

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ACLU and NOW support mother who drowned her kids
« Reply #26 on: August 28, 2001, 05:31:00 PM »
Ya, ain't that a blunder?  Actually Doolittle was in charge, but th fog of war was prevailent that day, a big shot 1 star general was killed that day in the friendly fire.  I'm currently reading a book called Military Blunders, though they don't list that particular accidental bombing, you should see what idiots men are in warfare!

Offline Ripsnort

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ACLU and NOW support mother who drowned her kids
« Reply #27 on: August 28, 2001, 05:32:00 PM »
Just 'jacked my own thread!   :) you set me up !
I might add, your points and Fury's are well taken, absorbed and stored in memory.  Good points both.

[ 08-28-2001: Message edited by: Ripsnort ]

Offline Udie

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ACLU and NOW support mother who drowned her kids
« Reply #28 on: August 28, 2001, 05:37:00 PM »
I don't see any good that would come out of her being executed.  I think she needs to be locked up for a very long time if not for life.  

 Good Lord, if I was her I'd want to die.  I'm sure she's come too by now and has realized the full finality of what she did to her children.  I personaly don't see how ANY sane person could posibly do what she did.  I've been depressed before bigtime, never to the point of suicide but bigtime all the same. hehe I'm too scared of dying to kill myself. I still would have never even thought of killing my own children if I had any.  


 fluffied up deal how ever you look at it, but I don't see what killing her would fix.

Udie

Offline Sandman

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ACLU and NOW support mother who drowned her kids
« Reply #29 on: August 28, 2001, 06:52:00 PM »
Great! The ACLU exists to ensure that no one has their rights as guaranteed by the Constitution taken away without due process.

While you armchair lawyers idly watch from the sidelines itching to pull the lever on her execution, I for one am glad that there is an ACLU and that they are making sure that woman receives the trial that she deserves.

Maybe the court will determine that she was coherent and sane while killing her children. Then fine, execute her if that is the desire of the court. If she is found to be insane, there are laws in this country do protect people with mental illnesses. The ACLU didn't create these laws, but they are there to make damn sure that the law is applied fairly to all U.S. citizens.

I place my trust in the court.
sand