Author Topic: F18s vs SU-29s  (Read 1357 times)

Offline Soda

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #15 on: May 09, 2001, 05:05:00 PM »
 
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Yoj
Yes they did - last I heard they were being actively flown as "Agressor Squadrons" in training exercises, but that was a while ago, and they may now be mothballed.

I understood that the Mig's the US bought were early A/B models and they didn't really feel it necessary to fly them again.  They had the German models to go up against which were to a slightly more common, and modern standard.  The A/B models the US bought were nuke delivery capable though, part of the reason the US picked them up..  airframe hours were high, and the version of engine used had a VERY, by western standards, short mean time between overhauls.  Thus the US wasn't claiming to want to get them flying again.  Then again, I'm sure the airframe had lots of usefulness other than just as a practice ACM plane.... radar signature testing, alloys analysis, etc.

 
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Toad:
I don't think he'd agree with a lot of what has been said here.
I'd be interested in hearing any stories, not in a any "flame" sorta way.  I think the Mig 29 and F-16 were probably a closer match than the Mig-29 vs F-18 debate.  The early F-16's were far more maneuverable than the later versions.  The thrust never really kept up to the addition of weight for capability.  Had a nice comparision of the two aircraft one year at an airshow I was at.. they performed immediately after one another.  The F-16 appeared more maneuverable, and certinaly showed a much smaller profile as a target.  I would have thought any F-16 vs Mig-29 encounter in combat would have resembled a knife fight...

a rumour I had heard about the early Mig-29's, if one engine quit in flight, the relative position of the engines in early models, and limits on the flight controls, would often create flat spins.  With the engine pods spread apart, a sudden engine stall could create massive yaw rates that were uncontrollable once started and required a lot of altitude to recover from.  Many Mig29's were lost to this early in their careers, along with a few pilots I'm sure.  Along with this rumour was a note that standard practice at one point for an engine flameout at low level was to eject without trying to save the aircraft...... just a rumour, sounds fishy to me, but who knows.

-Soda

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Offline Soda

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #16 on: May 09, 2001, 05:21:00 PM »

 
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Yoj:
Maybe so - but what "modern equipped air force" is it likely to face in the next 50 or so years? Britain? France? Sweden? Even Russia can't afford to upgrade to Su-37's (and I hear they can get a good deal on them), and it has no foreign market for the plane. Export sales don't offer much threat anyway - look at the MiG-29 in Iraqi hands. Good airplanes but mostly marginal pilots. Personally, I can't think of any place likely to have to money and inclination to field a credible state of the art force before a successor to the F-22 is developed.

You're probably fairly accurate with this statement.  The russians have several designs in the "pipe" including their forward swept wing design Su-37 (or whatever designation they have given it now), and the Mig 1.44.  They are having problems enough replacing their aging trainer force and seem to add most of their aircraft from prototypes of designs accepted into service.  News from places like Checnya (sp?) has the russians trying out prototypes in combat, partly to assess their design, partly because they are the most servicable in the inventory (since they have budgets for spares).

 
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Wingnut_0:
Plus remember that the F22 has it's missle bay's..usw housed inside the plane. Once it's fighting time, it blows it's stealth cover.

Ever seen footage of the weapons bay doors open and close on an F-22... it's fast.  The AMRAAM that hangs out is quite small, frontally, and the doors from the weapons bay help sheild the missile from radar returns off angle.  Average detection range for a small (very small) missile target by a fighter sized radar isn't very good.  It's somewhat doubtful you'd get a good return from the weapons bay, and if you did it wouldn't be enough long enough to really do anything to.  Standard BVR attacks had the shooter first setting up off-angle from the target at the limits of his radar gimble anyway.  That way you shield the weapons by with the door (which is coated in serious RAM you can imagine).  A slight roll of aircraft would actually completely block any view of the weapons bay to a target.

-Soda

Offline Tac

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #17 on: May 09, 2001, 05:23:00 PM »
Hah, my P-38 with AMRAAMS can kick BOTH their tulips  

Offline fd ski

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #18 on: May 09, 2001, 09:50:00 PM »
Nobody here mentioned the fact that in air to air missile technology the Russia is still somewhat ahead of us. Sindwinder 9X is just coming into operational use. Russian equivalent has been in service since late 80s.

Also in medium range missiles Russians matched AMMRAM's excellence while back.

As for Sparrow, if i'm not mistaken it still requires an active lock on target to track. Somehow i doubt it would prove to be useful over enemy territory with modern and well set up airforce.

Soda, i can't say that i share your enthusiasm over F18s. I served 4 years in Cecil Field ( before they moved all east coast 18s to Ociana ) and i'm yet to see an 18 fly without 2 or 3 droptanks.
Navy is twitching their noses cause that bird has no legs whatsoever. E model while enlarged the tanks by 1/3 also got the gas gulping F14 engines.. and nothing really changed  


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funked

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #19 on: May 09, 2001, 11:18:00 PM »
Carrier planes are always going to have range problems.

Soda, thanks for the info.  The MiG-29's (from Moldavia) are at WPAFB except for at least one which is on display at Nellis.  I wouldn't be surprised if the Red Hats had one at Groom Lake too.

Offline Toad

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #20 on: May 09, 2001, 11:29:00 PM »
Funked,

As I understand it (and particularly during the early part of F-18 deployment) the short cycle time of the F-18 created a major problem in the scheduling of carrier strikes.

I think this has been less of a problem lately simply because the F-18 has assumed a greater role and thus it has the predominant cycle time. They still have to schedule the other aircraft around it but there are fewer "others".

The new "extended range" versions accomplish longer flight times with (I think) three bags of gas. This cuts the weapons loadout however and limits them to subsonic until they dump the tanks.

(I think. I'm not a squid and I don't keep up with it all that much but I seem to recall some of my amigos stating this gripe on the long all-nighters.)

So the F-18 has changed carrier aviation, no question. Is the net result better or worse...that's the question.  
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Duckwing6

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2001, 07:03:00 AM »
The US planes are good .. but how good are they IN the field ? I mean not like in the Gulf where they were operating from basically unnoposed airfields ..

I've been close up to both MIG 29 and SU 27 and what's awesome is the Russian engineering pragmatism .. where you don't need High-Tech there is no hightech .. just rugged prooven design ..

IMO maintenance and ruggedness wise these A/C are far more durable and "surviveable" than any western design ( you can even operate them from grass strips without problems).

DW6

AG Sachsenberg

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2001, 08:45:00 AM »
 
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Originally posted by fd ski:
Nobody here mentioned the fact that in air to air missile technology the Russia is still somewhat ahead of us. Sindwinder 9X is just coming into operational use. Russian equivalent has been in service since late 80s.

Also in medium range missiles Russians matched AMMRAM's excellence while back.

As for Sparrow, if i'm not mistaken it still requires an active lock on target to track. Somehow i doubt it would prove to be useful over enemy territory with modern and well set up airforce.

Soda, i can't say that i share your enthusiasm over F18s. I served 4 years in Cecil Field ( before they moved all east coast 18s to Ociana ) and i'm yet to see an 18 fly without 2 or 3 droptanks.
Navy is twitching their noses cause that bird has no legs whatsoever. E model while enlarged the tanks by 1/3 also got the gas gulping F14 engines.. and nothing really changed  



I would like to see the test that show the russians have better missles then the allied counterparts.  And where did the Russians get the technology for their current "state of the Art" missles?  Little clue money was involved in a certain few transactions.    

Offline PC

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2001, 08:55:00 AM »
Last I heard, and I don’t keep up with this stuff very good, the F15 had an Air to Air kill ratio of 139 to 0.

That's a bunch of opportunities for someone to get lucky.

PC


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Offline -ammo-

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2001, 11:45:00 AM »
 
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Originally posted by fd ski:
Nobody here mentioned the fact that in air to air missile technology the Russia is still somewhat ahead of us. Sindwinder 9X is just coming into operational use. Russian equivalent has been in service since late 80s.

Also in medium range missiles Russians matched AMMRAM's excellence while back.

As for Sparrow, if i'm not mistaken it still requires an active lock on target to track. Somehow i doubt it would prove to be useful over enemy territory with modern and well set up airforce.


I would like to know just what Missile systems the Russians have that can match US missile technology. I am a Missile tech in the USAF and I know a "little bit"   about what we got. First, if you are close enough to use AIM-9m or X you are pretty close. Max range is 2 miles. First stage of the RM burns very quickly. The AMRAAM OTOH is a true fire and forget missile with an effective range of over 40 miles. A pilot can choose  4 seperate target and launch 4 missiles and they will not track the same target. They have some really amazing technology. The AIM-7 (sparrow) is an aging system. It uses a Passive radar homing system. This means that it track on reflected radar energy that has to come from an outside source. Either the originating fighter platform, or a different wingman, or even AWACS can provide the source (whic is ideal for the fighter pilot, he can bug out and evade). The WSEP excercises I have attended in FLA where they livefire these things have proven that the AIM-120 (AMRAAM), and the AIM-9M have well over a 90% hit rate against drones.

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AG Sachsenberg

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #25 on: May 10, 2001, 12:39:00 PM »
 
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Originally posted by -ammo-:
I would like to know just what Missile systems the Russians have that can match US missile technology. I am a Missile tech in the USAF and I know a "little bit"   about what we got. First, if you are close enough to use AIM-9m or X you are pretty close. Max range is 2 miles. First stage of the RM burns very quickly. The AMRAAM OTOH is a true fire and forget missile with an effective range of over 40 miles. A pilot can choose  4 seperate target and launch 4 missiles and they will not track the same target. They have some really amazing technology. The AIM-7 (sparrow) is an aging system. It uses a Passive radar homing system. This means that it track on reflected radar energy that has to come from an outside source. Either the originating fighter platform, or a different wingman, or even AWACS can provide the source (whic is ideal for the fighter pilot, he can bug out and evade). The WSEP excercises I have attended in FLA where they livefire these things have proven that the AIM-120 (AMRAAM), and the AIM-9M have well over a 90% hit rate against drones.


Was wondering the same have a few friends on langley that are missle techs.  And These new Russian missles have how much combat experience?  

Offline Soda

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« Reply #26 on: May 10, 2001, 12:47:00 PM »
 
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fd_ski:
Soda, i can't say that i share your enthusiasm over F18s. I served 4 years in Cecil Field ( before they moved all east coast 18s to Ociana ) and i'm yet to see an 18 fly without 2 or 3 droptanks.
Navy is twitching their noses cause that bird has no legs whatsoever. E model while enlarged the tanks by 1/3 also got the gas gulping F14 engines.. and nothing really changed

Agreed, though you can drop those droptanks when you show up to battle, like you can in AH.  The Su-27 had the fuel internal and while it was possible to dump some, it took time to do so, more time than you had.  If you took too much fuel (like on a long CAP or patrol) you ended up having to fight with all that extra fuel.  The difference was startling, thrust to weight  while light in a Su-27 was something akin to 1.3:1, heavy it was .8:1... a huge difference to account for in thrust. Wingloading numbers were also massively different between light and heavy configurations.  You can imagine that acceleration numbers probably had similar declines.  The original Su-27, up until the Su-30 versions didn't have A-to-A refuelling capabilities so they had to load up with internal fuel.  Even now the relative servicable rate, and numbers, of tankers is low and it would be assumed that in most cases the Su-27 would use internal fuel for the entire flight.  (btw, at max internal fuel the Su-27 has a terrific range, far more than it has been given credit for).

The Navy was also pissed about the bring back capabilities of the F-18's, or so I've read.  Dumping a smart bomb in the ocean isn't a very good way to save money.  The E models are supposed to help stop this practice.  The E model helped address growth capabilities in the airframe regarding computing power also.

Amazing they consider the E model an F18 at all, the dimensions are totally different, as are the designs of major portions of the internal and external structure.  What was supposed to be just an enlarged C model turned out to be a new plane, with the same basic shape as the old one....

Russian missile technology is substantial.  It's hard to tell if they are ahead or not, although they do have many designs with claimed capabilities that are only now beginning to be implmenented in western designs like the 9X, ASRAAM, AMRAAM or IRIS-T.  I suspect the latest western designs have probably leap-frogged over the russian designs, but for a while the russian designs were most likely superiour.

On a side note to the missile debate, western ECM was considered substantially more effective than eastern designs.  Many/most russian fighters barely had provisions for chaff/flare launchers, or had relatively few expendables.  Russian fighters did not have internal ECM capabilities or have provisions for many expendables (chaff/flares).  More recent upgrades have addressed this problem substantially.

The russians did have significantly better "rough field" support for their aircraft.  US, and most western designs excluding sweden, are runway only designed.  This could have been a significant issue had it come to a real war between the two during the cold war.  Again, rough field performance depended on what you had to work with though, take-off weights couldn't be near maximum and while it was possible to takeoff/land on grass, it was not considered that safe.

-Soda

Offline fd ski

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #27 on: May 10, 2001, 02:06:00 PM »
Ammo, good site there:
 http://www.fas.org/man/dod-101/sys/missile/row/

Tell me what comparable to A11 Archer did US field OPERATIONALY 15 and 10 years go.

The quality of the missles above coupled with the targeting systems that russians have DEPLOYED over 10 years ago mean that no matter how manouverable, the Western fighter will have a missle coming after him at any angle, while he himself has to manouver the Russian jet into part of his front aspect.

Soda, problem with F18s is a fact that once he drops those tanks he migth not be able to make it home, eseically considering that disengaging with the low speed that it has migth not always be an option either.

During my Persian Gulf deployments our F-14 squadron kept practicing bomb drops, while i though was perculiar. It turns out that Navy feels that 14 can carry out the fighter bomber mission better then 18 since 3 drop tanks heavly limit it's load out.
Kinda sad for the "do it all" aircraft  


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AG Sachsenberg

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #28 on: May 10, 2001, 02:15:00 PM »
Ski I hope that is not your only source on Russian missles.  Tha A-11 report on that page is very skeptical to say the least.  Sounds to me like it was written by Popular Mechanics.  

I bet that 'WIG' aircraft is out there transporting troops to the frontline    Sorry had to pull that from an old Arty in that mag lol.

Offline Soda

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« Reply #29 on: May 10, 2001, 03:13:00 PM »
fd_ski,
  No doubt that running out of gas would be a HUGE problem, although in that case there are several options that could occur.  You could tank and refuel (maybe), divert to another closer field, or possibly have to rtb and call off the mission.  In the Su-27 your options are to run (thus calling off the mission or maybe not being able to defend the target), or fight at high weight.  The heavy weight setting on the Su-27 (apparantly built right into the flight control software) had a hard limit of only +5G's in that condition.  I wouldn't want to fight like that against any 9G capable opponent.  Typically in an attack profile if you get attacked you're going to have to ditch your A to G ordinance anyway so the mission is off, it's now a survival exercise.

The BombCat or SuperTomcat idea has been around a long time.  Before they even thought about creating the F18E series there was quite the support for the F-14 bomber.  the range was good, and with upgrades it could have new computers/software to give excellent bombing capacity.  Problems included the relative airframe hours of remaining F-14s in service (without starting new production which hadn't been done in many years), the bring back weight of a loaded Tomcat (considering the 6 Phoenix loadout was not return capable) and the re-engining program that would be required (note: the majority of F14's are not D models with uprated engines and digital databuses, they are B's and B+'s).  the F14 was also a large radar target which would have been a problem to reduce (because of shape issues) and presented a large carrier footprint on deck.  They had hoped the F18E would be much smaller allowing more to be carried.  F-14's were also tasked with air-defense and pulling them away from that role would lead to a general lack of long range airdefense (a decision still made in the coldwar) since the F-18 wasn't quite up to the interceptor tasking (no AMRAAMs yet).

AG Sachsenberg,
  I'm sure the russians make a fine A-to-A missile.  They basically spent a fortune on missile technology in the 70's and 80's, moreso than the western countries did.  Thus the US stayed with the old AIM-9 design series but added all kinds of revisions.  The capabilities of the russian missiles was considerable though, and they advertized some of them quite widely with no acutal western equivalent.  The high off-boresight abilities, hyper agility, etc, were all missing in the AIM-9 series (though the isreali Python and possibly South African missiles had some of these capabilties).  The AMRAAM is certainly a VERY capable missile with numerous uses to draw some conclusion on it's effectiveness (which seems good).  The western airforces ALL realised they had a problem with the AIM-9 series, that's why they all have introduced new missiles into their inventories (or are doing so right now).  IRIS-T for Germany/Canada/Others, ASRAAM for UK/Australia, AIM-9X for US (and others I'm sure)... etc etc.  Ya have to think that each nation realised the AIM-9 series (in current form) had lost or was losing any advantage it had to Russian designs.  All these new designs claim similar capabilties as the russian claims since the early 90's which tends to point to the fact that they are good ideas and everyone has adopted them.

Interesting discussion, I'm more of a modern aircraft buff than WW2 aircraft.  I don't really like modern flight sim games though, tend to be too point, shoot, and wait for results.

-Soda

[This message has been edited by Soda (edited 05-10-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Soda (edited 05-10-2001).]

[This message has been edited by Soda (edited 05-10-2001).]