Author Topic: F18s vs SU-29s  (Read 1358 times)

AG Sachsenberg

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #30 on: May 10, 2001, 03:42:00 PM »
WEll put soda.  I will comment later when I have time :-)  I use to study the USSR military very heavily in the 80's and 90's.  And was fascinated by what they made.  Sometimes sceptical on what you read online  

Offline Soda

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #31 on: May 10, 2001, 04:28:00 PM »
AG Sachsenberg,
  Have to agree on not believing what you read, best to get angles from lots of sources and try to deduce the fact from fiction.  That was usually almost impossible in cold war days, but more has come out in recent years to pull together fact and fiction.

It's interesting looking at what we know the Russians did do in the 70's/80's in terms of research though, they definitely took a risk laden approach.  They experimented with new ideas for old concepts or whole new ideas.  Things like Wing-in-Ground-Effect airplanes, shkval high subsonic torpedos, laser range finders/aiming on aircraft guns.  It would be interesting to know what sorts of things they tried and flat failed on, I'm sure the stories might be pretty spooky.  I bet their "black" programs would draw interesting comparisons to the US ones.

-Soda

Offline fd ski

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #32 on: May 10, 2001, 05:04:00 PM »
AG, are you yet again argue for a sake of arguing only ?

Information on A11 was avaiable from all sorts of sources for well over 10 years, including Janes and Air Force publications.
Not exacly anything secret, and if you "studied" Russian projects so much you should have heard of it eh ?

Did you bother checking what fas.org was ?
Mind you , not the "allthetopsecretinfoonrussianm illitaryyoucan'tfindanywhereelsecauseitsfrickingclassified.com" but it sums up most info pretty well.

Soda, i think what bothers me the msot is the pricetag of the new F18s. Initial ones went for 250Mil + and production ones were supposed to be 50 Mil per piece ( this is from 1998, migth have changed ). When i was making 16K as an E-4 in the navy, i always wished they would buy russia birds that are cheaper and upgrade them, and hopefully give me the change  


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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters

Offline Soda

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #33 on: May 10, 2001, 05:43:00 PM »
fd_ski,
  The F-18E's have ended up far different from what they were originally proposed.  Quite literally they were intially proposed as mere up-sizing of the C/D model.  In the end though they were almost total re-works.  The internal structure, wings, elevators, nose, winggloves and central fuselage box were almost totally new.  Only the tails were upsized version of the old plane, and even they were different internally.  There were some advantages though, a lot of aerodynamic testing had been done on the shape, as well as flight software that needed to only be tuned, not completely re-written.  Of course, the wing drop issues at high AoA and some weapons seperation problems appeared that weren't expected and delayed (cost $$) to the program.

  The actual cost, not including development aircraft, for a new build F-18E is actually quite a good deal.  I heard a price in the range of 35 million a copy, or within 10% of the price of a new F-18C.  *Note: this number could be misleading since initial production E models will not have the full avionics, ECM, or definitive radar packages.  Other aircraft in production compare well in price to this with Rafale and Eurofighter costing significantly more for what is likely similar performance.  Then again, those two are not expected to enter service in their planned final configuration either so electronics costs will mostly likely be higher.  The US would never buy an aircraft not designed and build in the US of A... national pride wouldn't allow it.  Only the Harrier is an exception and it's pretty clear the Marine versions are siginificantly US now in design.

I really think the Navy got screwed with the cancellation of the A-12 attack plane.  They scavenged what they could and tried to quickly make a decision about what to do.  they'd already committed to retire the A-6's, half were already artifical reefs (ok, that's an overexageration   ).  Why not address the range problem as the Mig-29, F-15E, or F-16 block 60 have done, conformal fuel tanks.  The only reason I can think of is bring back weight would have been even worse.  Looking at it that way it makes you wonder if there wasn't just a desire to get a production line running again and starting making airplanes.  While everyone else is looking at producing the next generation of fighters the F-18E is mearly a warmed over design based back to the 70's.

Be glad the Navy isn't buying naval F-22's, those would set you back 200+ million per copy, the prototypes closer to a billion apiece.  that would mean Canada could afford an airforce of 2 F-22's... though maybe only 1 pilot.

-Soda

Offline -lynx-

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F18s vs SU-29s
« Reply #34 on: May 11, 2001, 07:36:00 AM »
Hmmm... Very interesting stuff about F18 limitations. I watched a few documentaries in Discovery Wings but they were of "the best since sliced bread" variety and I'd heard before from a couple of guys who used to work with F18s far from complimentary remarks. Was really confused - stuff is clearer now

 
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And where did the Russians get the technology for their current "state of the Art" missles?
Oh puuleeeaaase not another homegrown f(*&%g expert on "Darn Ruskies stole this and that" crap - sometimes I think that some of you guys are just as brainwashed as hardline communists

They developed it, OK? Crafty little buggers as they are. They didn't have an ally to come visit, promise full cooperation, take all the documentation from and then to tell them to piss off like the Yanks did. In a barn, with simple tools and a few swear words they created all this non-fly-by-wire stuff that takes your breath away at airshows. Simple, uncomplicated folk .

As for the combat record of any modern fighter/missile - can't recall last conflict with equally armed adversaries, can you? Do remember a few scandals about this wonderweapon or that failing to deliver during tests after zillions spent on R&D though...