Author Topic: McVeigh, The FBI, And Clinton-Reno.......  (Read 835 times)

Offline Cabby

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McVeigh, The FBI, And Clinton-Reno.......
« on: May 11, 2001, 10:52:00 PM »
The Branch Davidians are/were a Christian commune, and they had a firearms cache. That fact alone was extremely threatening to the then Leftist-Liberal Establishment(i.e. the Clinton Administration)and it's chief enforcers(willing or not-"i was just following orders"), the ATF, the FBI, and Janet Reno's "Justice" Dept.

Just look at what SturmFuhrer Reno did in Florida vis a vis the "Elian" situation, largely to the cheers from the "enlightened", "caring", Leftist-Liberal segment of the political spectrum. And, of course, the Left's "cheerleaders", the Media.

It is a known fact that FBI Director Louis Freeh cannot stand Janet Reno. Freeh REFUSED to brief Bill Clinton on certain "sensitve" information because he didn't TRUST Clinton's LOYALTY to the United States. Freeh announced his "retirement" from the FBI just four days ago. Then the FBI's "glitch" in not releasing 2000 or more pages of "evidence" in the Okla. City trial. What's going on here???

I think it is safe to say that the Clinton Administration/Clinton-Reno "Justice" Dept. were the most corrupt and traitorous in American history. Without a doubt. I think that Clinton and Reno should BOTH be in jail.

What the US Government did at Ruby Ridge, Waco, and in the "Elian" case is unforgivable. Inexcusable.

Having said all that, in fairness to the "peons"(government agents)on the ground in Waco, Koresh should have obeyed the agent's order to surrender peacefully(even though, IMO, he and the Davidians were not a "threat" to anyone but themselves) and, as they say, "go quietly".

That he didn't do this is what led to the disaster in Waco. Of course the GA's COULD have used their heads and snagged Koresh quietly, AWAY from the compound. But perhaps the US Government WANTED an armed confrontation. This was a case of one idiot, Koresh, and another idiot, Reno, both intitiating a tradgedy.

I repeat, the Clinton Administration/Clinton-Reno "Justice" Dept., the actions of US Agents in Waco, all stink to high heaven.
I fervently hope and pray that the Bush Administration, John Ashcroft, and other Federal/State agencies thoroughly investigate the previous Administration and bring the full weight of the Law to bear on ANY persons involved in any illegal or un-Constitutional activities.

And, that the Bush Administration fires the incompetent personnel. The Left and the Media will scream bloody-hell, but to hell with them. Will Bush and the Republicans have the "guts" to it?? We will see........

McVeigh should be hanged. He is a MURDERER, not a patriot, and deserves to die. I believe ALL murderers should be put-to-death promptly, if PROVEN guilty beyond a shadow of a doubt. I don't think blowing-up buildings full of innocent people is the way to get "payback" for the egregious mis-use of power by what i regard as criminal political hacks. Instead, punish the people RESPONSIBLE, under the LAW, not murder innocent women and children who DID NOTHING to deserve a violent death.  We, the People of the United States should DEMAND that we purge the US Government of the corrupt demogogues in Washington.  I'm afraid though, that a very large percentage of the US population doesn't give a damn.  If that is the case, then we, the People, deserve the government we get.  

Have you all noticed that the "death penalty hating" Leftist-Liberals are clamoring the loudest for McVeigh's head?   What sleazy hypocrites.  

McVeigh will beat the death penalty, unless the "anti death-penalty" Leftist-Liberals and the Media get the blood they are screaming for. After all, McVeigh destroyed a sacred site to the Leftist-Liberals, a Government Building.   The Leftists-Liberals worship the STATE, and you know how blood-thirsty "religious nuts" can be.

I think it is plain to see that we now know for certain which way the "Crypto-Fascists" lean politically these days, and it doesn't rhyme with "bright"........

Cabby


[This message has been edited by cabby (edited 05-11-2001).]
Six: "Come on Cabbyshack, let's get some!"

Offline LaVa

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McVeigh, The FBI, And Clinton-Reno.......
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2001, 12:39:00 AM »
Amen

I Listen to Rush as well - even though i'm a Liberterian.

I would like to add that the entire clinton family are criminals and should be punished, however, I do hope Chelsie makes it as a Porn Star.

LaVa


Offline jihad

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McVeigh, The FBI, And Clinton-Reno.......
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2001, 01:15:00 AM »
 

I Listen to Rush as well - even though i'm a Liberterian.

Why would anyone choose to listen to a known liar - much less believe the drivel he spouts?

The better part of him ran down the sows leg.

Offline Jigster

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McVeigh, The FBI, And Clinton-Reno.......
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2001, 03:54:00 AM »
O'Riley is god.

Charlton Heston in Ought Four.

Rush is bad, he is tainted.

Offline Cabby

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McVeigh, The FBI, And Clinton-Reno.......
« Reply #4 on: May 12, 2001, 05:06:00 AM »
Jihad:

Typical Liberal response.  Don't tell us why Janet Reno and the Clinton Administration are to be admired for their "values",  "integrity", and "competence".   Don't "explain" the "heroic" action of the Reno "Justice" Dept. in Waco and Florida, and the absolute desecration of the US Constitution and the Law by one William J. Clinton.  We KNOW why you don't.  Because you CAN'T.

No, just paint the Conservative opposition(even a blow-hard like Limbaugh) to the most corrupt Administration in American History in "Nazi/Fascist"  colors and that will suffice.

Well, no dice, Jack.  Those tactics, like your lame-ass Leftist-Liberal politics, don't work anymore.

Cabby
Six: "Come on Cabbyshack, let's get some!"

Offline Udie

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McVeigh, The FBI, And Clinton-Reno.......
« Reply #5 on: May 12, 2001, 08:15:00 AM »
Jihad,

 Name one thing Rush has lied about  

Udie

Offline bowser

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McVeigh, The FBI, And Clinton-Reno.......
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2001, 09:49:00 AM »
Cabby, you really should have your own radio show.  You could show that Rush fella a thing or two.  You're hilarious.  

bowser

Offline Fatty

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McVeigh, The FBI, And Clinton-Reno.......
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2001, 11:46:00 AM »
The only case I'll agree with you on is Elian.  As for the rest of your innocent victims, the deaths are on their own hands.  Shoot at agents?  Well, hate to break this to you, but it might end up getting you killed.  It's tragic about the children in Waco, but David Khoresh kept them over 6 weeks in sporadic shootouts with FBI (not to mention raping them) because....because...because. ..oh yes, I forgot, it's because he's an all around great Amurrican.

PS - This comes from your friendly registered republican.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2001, 12:22:00 PM »
Fatty,

Gotta disagree with you a bit. I think Ruby Ridge was a clusterf***.

Even the Department of Justice Ruby Ridge Report states that:

"1. The Policy for the Use of Deadly Force and the Authorization Structure for Rules of Engagement Must be Standardized for All Federal Law Enforcement Agencies.

...We have concluded that the special Rules of Engagement in force at Ruby Ridge violated the Constitution of the United States."

Without getting into any of how this situation came about... since like everything else lately there seems to be no clear cut evidence... that admission by the Justice Department speaks pretty loudly.

This from a devout Independent.  
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Fatty

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McVeigh, The FBI, And Clinton-Reno.......
« Reply #9 on: May 12, 2001, 12:38:00 PM »
I have to disagree with that finding.  A dead police officer resulting in a shootout in an inner city would have these guys praising the police dept for not backing down, but make it the FBI and a gun hoarding cult or a white seperatist mountain compound, and suddenly equal response is wrong?

In both of these cases, the initial attempt by only a couple of agents to serve a warrant was met with gunfire.

Offline fd ski

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McVeigh, The FBI, And Clinton-Reno.......
« Reply #10 on: May 12, 2001, 12:45:00 PM »
There is a contradiction in you cabby...
you hate communism yet at the same time you like to have your opinions handed to you on the platter by a blabbering demagogue....


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Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

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Offline Toad

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« Reply #11 on: May 12, 2001, 01:13:00 PM »
Fatty,

This report isn't outsiders throwing stones at the Justice Department. It's an internal critique.

"Attorney General Janet Reno established a Justice Department task force to investigate theevents at Ruby Ridge. The task force concluded in a 1994 report that the FBI's Hostage Rescue Team overreacted to the threat of violence and instituted a shoot-on-sight policy that violated bureau guidelines and Fourth Amendment restrictions on police power.

The DOJ itself said "we did it wrong."

"Met with gunfire?" There is no definitive evidence on which side shot first at the "Y". As you might expect the stories from the actual opposing forces blame the "other guy" for shooting first.

The DOJ report says: "4. Conclusion
We are unable to determine who initiated the gunfire at the Y on August 21".

So the DOJ itself doesn't know if the agents were "met with gunfire" or if the agents initiated the gunfire. Pretty important point.

As to the later shooting of Vicki Weaver the DOJ said:

"4. Conclusion
We find that the decision to deploy the FBI's HRT and components of the U.S. Marshals Service SOG to the Ruby Ridge site was proper. However, the Rules of Engagement drafted by the FBI were improper and failed to comply with constitutional standards regarding the use of deadly force by a law enforcement officer. The Rules were also a departure from the FBI's standard policy on the use of deadly force.

Implementation of such Rules may have created an atmosphere that caused an HRT sniper/observer to take a shot that he otherwise would not have taken. The imprecision of the Rules resulted in wide misunderstandings regarding the authorized use of deadly force by law enforcement personnel. In addition, the Constitution requires that surrender announcements be given, where feasible, before deadly force may be employed. For this reason, we believe that the FBI should have given a higher priority to making a surrender announcement at the earliest possible opportunity."

I'm not supporting the far right militia fringe by any means. I'm just pointing out that DOJ thinks they themselves botched it.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Fatty

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McVeigh, The FBI, And Clinton-Reno.......
« Reply #12 on: May 12, 2001, 01:51:00 PM »
Both instances have internal criticism of the handling after the initial confrontations, and at least in part justified.  The problem is when this is immediately grabbed and flaunted as evidence of "jack-booted thug" practices of government agencies, completely ignoring how the situations got to that point.

For instance, grab a report disputing who technically fired first, and you can ignore that to even get to that position there had to be outright resistance to the serving of a warrant.

Cite a problem in the response to the resistance of that warrant (with gunfire, no matter who fired first), and you can ignore the fact the reason you're in that position is the flat refusal to respond to orders issued by the courts.

Cite the deaths of the compound inhabitants at Waco, and you can ignore the fact the reason for the standoff was the shooting of 2 ATF agents trying to serve a warrant.  Followed for 6 weeks by David Khoresh's refusal to allow women and children to leave.

Cite the bureaucratic errors in the omission of some of the FBI interview summaries in the McViegh case, and if you squint hard enough you can see him as a poor libertarian prosecuted by an overzealous FBI.

Is the FBI a bloated, inefficient bureaucracy?  Absolutely.  The problem is when people begin to interpret bureaucratic ineptitude as justification for armed insurrection.

No amount of hearings or fact findings can change the underlying fact that the "victims" in these cases found themselves in those situation purely through their own actions.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #13 on: May 12, 2001, 02:27:00 PM »
"No amount of hearings or fact findings can change the underlying fact that the "victims" in these cases found themselves in those situation purely through their own actions."

Truer words was never spoke, podnuh.

Nonetheless, it is a basic tenet here that all are innocent until proven guilty and the Constitution covers even the bad guys.

If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline jihad

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McVeigh, The FBI, And Clinton-Reno.......
« Reply #14 on: May 12, 2001, 04:02:00 PM »
Udie do a search on Limbaugh - you will find many websites with the information.    

Cabby your an looney and an idiot - I'm surprised you don't defend that disease Limbaugh as a "patriot".

Its typical of you to call anyone who doesn't agree with your twisted and hateful rhetoric a leftist/liberal. WTF do you know about my political beliefs - and a better question is do I care?

I'm simply painting all republicans with that broad brush and bucket of slime you leave behind when you post, does it leave a bad taste in your mouth?

I've said in the past I don't agree with what the Clinton administration did or stood for - I even voted for George Bush - I guess that makes me a liberal ehhh?

Cabby bleated: <bleated = the sound a sheep makes>

No, just paint the Conservative opposition(even a blow-hard like Limbaugh) to the most corrupt Administration in American History in "Nazi/Fascist" colors and that will suffice.

Why are you still going on about this? Its history at this point.

 Do you see yourself as "the conservative opposistion" - do you think your opinion <misguided as it is> matters to anyone other than loonies like yourself?

It makes me want to laugh that you attach any importance to dead issues like this.

Just like your comments about how some things are worth fighting for in the China thread a few weeks back - WTF do YOU know about whats worth fighting for?

Are you a veteran of the US Armed Forces?

I am - I've put my bellybutton on the line for my country - and have the medals to prove it <Army Commendation Medal, Army Acheivement Medal, Humanitarian Service Medal, Overseas Service Ribbon, along with a few lesser ones> letters of appreciation from several generals and Caspar Weinberger who I met and provided security for during the Pershing II deployment in Europe in 1983.

You really don't have a clue what your talking about do you?

I have the right to make any comments I like about scum <Limbaugh> or any other person who throws themselves into the public arena of politics - I've earned that right, WTF have YOU ever done? <other than parrot a known liar>

You make me sick - its time you learn to think for yourself.


[This message has been edited by jihad (edited 05-12-2001).]