French Armour

[VooWho]

I heard that French Armour during the early days of WW2 was as good, or even better than that of what Germany had when Germany invaded France. I think we should have the Char B1 bis. someday in AH.



GOSH THATS A BIG TANK!

[Krusty]

When Germany invaded France it had pitiful tanks. They were upgraded afterwards into the fearsome, powerful, version of the Panzer that we have in AH.

Putting in the Char B1 bis would be like adding the Sherman... Weak and vulnerable -- only there were 50,000+ Shermans that served in action, and I'm guessing only a couple hundred Char B1 bis'. Might as well just add the Sherman (*shrug*)

[straffo]

Originally posted by Krusty
Putting in the Char B1 bis would be like adding the Sherman... Weak and vulnerable -- only there were 50,000+ Shermans that served in action, and I'm guessing only a couple hundred Char B1 bis'. Might as well just add the Sherman (*shrug*)

380 approx, not a lot but more than a couple hundred.

btw I agree with you a B1bis would be useless un AH MA.

[Angus]

It's a 2-gunner though, so interesting for ambushes.
But then again, there was the American Grant.

[DoKGonZo]

The S-35 was considered the best of the French tanks in 1940. Biggest design flaw on all the French tanks was the 2-man turret. The German medium tanks (incl. Pz III) had a 3-man turret, allowing the commander to command the tank and work with other elements, and the gunner and loader could focus on firing the main gun.

If you really want an interesting griefer vehicle, you want the Russian T-35 - a 76mm howie, 2 more hull turrets with 45mm cannons, and 2 more hull turrets on top of that with 7.62mm MG's.

[Charge]

And bad visibility from inside the tank.

-C+

[Saxman]

It's missing the little white flag...

[straffo]

how funy is this comment ...

[Bruno]

It's the stereotypical response of the 'attention seeker'...

"Look at me, I make teh funneh..."

[Masherbrum]

Originally posted by Krusty
When Germany invaded France it had pitiful tanks. They were upgraded afterwards into the fearsome, powerful, version of the Panzer that we have in AH.

Wrong.   You know it, we all know it.

[Debonair]

everybody loves a good joke

[Bodhi]

Originally posted by Krusty
When Germany invaded France it had pitiful tanks. They were upgraded afterwards into the fearsome, powerful, version of the Panzer that we have in AH.

I guess you neglect to realise that the Pz IV Ausf D was built starting 1939 and participated in the invasion of France and the low countries.  Here is one in Semois on the 12th of May, 1940.  Far from a "pitiful" tank.



Krusty, not to be a jerk, but maybe you should actually pick up and read a history book someday instead of making incorrect statements and unsubstantiated opinions all the time.

[Bruno]

There were less then 230 Ausf D produced by '41 when production of this model stopped. There were even fewer available for the invasion of France.

FYI From another forum:

On 10th May 1940, there are 2636 German tanks, 99 Panzerjäger I, 24 Sturmgeschütze, 38 15cm s.I.G.33 auf Pz.Kpfw.I,  6 8.8cm FlaK (Sfl) auf Sd.Kfz. 8 and at least 917 armored cars for a total of 3720 AFVs. 965 tanks are armed with a 3.7cm or 7.5cm gun, 99 Panzerjäger I with a 4.7cm gun and 24 StuG III with a 7.5cm gun. That leads to 1088 German AFVs armed with a good AT capacity (not counting the 6 8.8cm self-propelled AT guns).

On 10th May are 2352 modern French tanks (2822 tanks with the obsolete FT17 and FCM-2C tanks) and about 609 armored cars or light reconnaissance tanks (330 armored cars and 279 light tanks). That makes 3101 French tanks (if the 279 AMR33/35s are counted as tanks):

· only about 480 French tanks armed with a 47mm SA35 (including the B1bis tanks with their 75mm hull gun)
· about 350 which have a 37mm SA38 gun.
· from the about 279 AMR33/35s, 259 are only armed with a single 7.5mm or 13.2mm MG and 20 AMR35 have a 25mm SA35 gun (AMR35 ZT2 and ZT3).
That makes 850 French tanks (27%) with an excellent to good anti-tank capacity.

The huge majority of the French tanks (2251 tanks) are light tanks armed with the 37mm SA18 gun or only MGs. The 37mm SA18 gun can be used at 300-400m against the Panzer I and Panzer II but to knock out a Panzer III Ausf.E/F (the previous models are less armored and easier to destroy) or a Panzer IV Ausf.C/D, they have to get as close as < 25-100m, whereas the enemy can destroy them at about 300m (3.7cm KwK) to 500m (7.5cm KwK) and even from longer range if you consider the obsolete Renault FT17.

On 10th May 1940, the British armored units add only 23 tanks having an AT capacity (Matilda II) and the Belgian armored units add 50 light tanks and 228 tank destroyers for a total of 1109 allied AFVs with a good to very good AT capacity. But note that the German AFVs have an armor of 13-30mm (except the StuG III) whereas the French tanks (except the obsolete ones) have generally 40-60mm armor (35mm for the hull of the Hotchkiss H35).

There are comparable numbers of allied and German tanks with about 3000 tanks. If all the AFVs are counted there are 4112 allied vs 3720 German AFVs, with the obsolete French FT17 and FCM-2C tanks being counted (3642 allied vs 3720 German AFVs without them). This apparent "equality" in the number of tanks is purely mathematical and just taken as such by many people. In the facts it is completely false.

All the about 3000 German tanks are concentrated in the 10 Panzerdivisionen unlike only about 960 French tanks in the DCR/DLM. Each DCR/DLM has less tanks than a Panzerdivision : there are roughly 10x300 German tanks against 6x160 French tanks and many dispersed battalions. That was the reality on the battlefield. The British 1st AD, which arrives during May 1940, concentrated the cruiser tanks but did not really change the balance and was quickly neutralized. All the Belgian tanks were dispersed in small numbers in their infantry divisions, the highest number of Belgian tanks could be found in the 1e division de chasseurs ardennais with about 50 AFVs. During the battle the Belgian AFVs were generally dispersed in groups of 2-4 AFVs.

In the DLM/DCR 80-90 tanks are only light tanks unlike what was initially planned (only medium/heavy tanks). 80% of these light tanks are armed with the 37mm SA18 L/21 gun and only 20% with the 37mm SA38 L/33 gun. The 37mm SA18 is only adapted to infantry support. A tank armed with the 37mm SA18 gun can actually destroy armored cars, Panzer I and Panzer II tanks at 300-400m but has to go closer than 25-100m to have a chance to destroy a Panzer III or Panzer IV, whereas it can itself be destroyed at 300-400m by them.

The DLMs were led by the cavalry corps HQ and the different DCRs were commanded by an armored group HQ. Nevertheless, these HQs had insufficient means unlike the Panzerkorps which had fully operational HQs.

Thanks to more radio sets the German tanks were able to better coordinate and concentrate their attack, changing more easily the attack axis. The French tanks favored better armor (and armament if we exclude the 37mm SA18 gun) rather than communications and speed. This better tactical regulation resulted in much more concentrated German armor against allied tanks, usually 4 vs 1, sometimes even 8-10 vs 1 odds.

The so-called German "superiority" was mainly due to:

· better high command and strategy, all the structural evolutions between Fall Weiss and Fall Gelb
· the organization of the Panzerwaffe concentrating all the tanks in the 10 Panzerdivisionen
· better inter-arms cooperation
· better tactical regulation, much more concentrated armor (usually 4 vs 1, sometimes 8-10 vs 1 odds)
· generally higher speed and mobility of the German tanks
· tracer and smoke shells available in the German tanks (not in the French ones)
· more radio sets allowing to better organize and control the maneuvers
· mostly always presence of observation planes (Hs126 and Fi156) to provide information about the allied position and direct artillery and aerial support
· mostly omnipresent close air support
· German tanks were spreading into the allied rears … leading to issues to preserve a HQ or a fuel supply dump … leading to tanks being abandoned and scuttled due to lack of fuel
· better and faster logistics in the armored units (and far less hindered by aerial attacks)
· 1-man turret in most of the French tanks and several very recently constituted units lacking training
· usually German tanks avoided combat with the heavy allied tanks like the Renault B1bis which constituted a big threat, they were rather engaged by 8.8cm FlaK, 10.5cm LeFH or aircrafts … again inter-arms cooperation

--- LOSSES ---

If we list all the AFVs (tanks, tank-destroyers, self-propelled guns and armored cars) we can say that on 10th May 1940 about 4,112 Allied AFVs are facing about 3,720 German AFVs.

1) We can say that on 10th May 1940 the French army had a total 3,101 tanks in combat units. If we take into account the replacement of May-June 1940 (about 688 tanks) and the territorial/regional units (not counted among 'combat units' in my previous listing) actually engaging obsolete Renault FT17 tanks against the enemy we reach a figure of about 4,000 French tanks used during the whole 1940 campaign.

Concerning the French tanks lost during May-June 1940:
According to "Survey of Allied tank casualties in World War II" (Alvin D. Coox and L. Van Loan Naisawald) - Operations Research Office, Johns Hopkins University, Fort Lesley J. McNair (1951) based on data provided by the SHAT (Service Historique de l'Armée) : "Notice relative aux destructions d'engins blindés au cours de la guerre 1939-1945" and "Fiche : Annexe ŕ l'étude sur les pertes en chars au cours de la campagne 1939-1940 (SECRET), received by Office of the Army Attache, American Ambassy in Pairs, in reply to an Operations Research Office request of 4th August 1950.

The following data represent the losses of the tank battalions, the DCRs, the DLCs, the DLMs, the reconnaissance groups and the territorial units. Tanks hit but salvaged and repaired by the field echelons in a very short time were screened out. Tank losses for the indicated period of time by number and percentage were as follows:

[Bruno]

FRENCH TANK CASUALTY DATA BY CAUSE, 1939-1940

· Artillery (field guns, PaK, FlaK and tanks) : 1,669 (95.4%)
· Mines : 45 (2.6%)
· Aircrafts : 35 (2.0%)
--> TOTAL : 1749 tanks (including 151 obsolete tanks - Renault FT17 tanks)

There were also tanks which were abandoned, scuttled or set afire by their crews to avoid captured. [Personal note : the total number including breakdowns/damages and then abandoned tanks is probably closer to 2,000 French tanks].

No data exists as to those tanks repaired in factories and parks between 10th May and 25th June 1940, or those salvaged on the battlefield, repaired and sent back into battle.

The same document states that from 10th May to 25th June 4,071 tanks of all types were actually engaged and 3,413 of them were modern tanks.

Acknowledgment to William Schneck who provided a copy of the original unclassified US document

It is striking that even with huge air superiority and omnipresent close air support only 35 French tanks were taken out by German aicrafts. Several French tanks were destroyed by AT mines, implying a French attack like in Montcornet or Abbeville. It would have been interesting (but impossible) to know how many of the 1,669 tanks taken out by artillery have been actually destroyed by German tanks and not by AA / AT / field guns (or a combination of several means) [e.g. roughly all the Renault B1bis heavy tanks lost in combat were never taken out by German tanks but by 8.8cm FlaK, 10.5cm leFH and several by AT mines].

2) The British have 308 tanks in France on 10th May 1940 and 284 additional ones were sent during the Battle of France = 592 tanks. In Abbeville and Arras alone the British lost 167 of their tanks. Several other British tanks were lost around Boulogne and Rouen but most of the remaining tanks were simply abandoned or lost due to mechanical breakdowns and could not be recovered and repaired in front of the advancing German troops.

3) Belgium had 50 light tanks and 228 tank destroyers but I have no data about the actual losses. However they were only used in very small groups and were probably all lost or abandoned.

4) Germany had 2,636 German tanks on 10th May 1940. 288 additional tanks were received during the 1940 campaign for a total of 2,924 tanks. Accrording to Thomas Jentz, 839 German tanks are completely destroyed during May-June 1940. Beside these tanks we must list the 99 Panzerjäger I and 24 StuG IIIs but I have no information about their losses and would appreciate if someone could complete the data about those AFVs.

[straffo]

I'll add to the "German superiority"  the complete inpetitude of the french HQ