Author Topic: 1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace  (Read 2203 times)

Offline Dos Equis

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #75 on: June 12, 2006, 02:40:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Jackal1
I say make him watch every Jane Fonda movie ever made..repeatedly.


Roger Ebert

Quick question: When Jane Fonda was on her "FTA" concert tour during the Vietnam era, who was in her audience? The quick answer from most people would probably be, "anti-war hippies, left-wingers and draft-dodgers." The correct answer would be: American troops on active duty, many of them in uniform.

"Sir! No Sir!" is a documentary that about an almost-forgotten fact of the Vietnam era: Anti-war sentiment among U.S. troops grew into a problem for the Pentagon. The film claims bombing was used toward the end of the war because the military leadership wondered, frankly, if some of their ground troops would obey orders to attack. It's also said there were a few Air Force B-52 crews that refused to bomb North Vietnam. And in San Diego, sailors on an aircraft carrier tried to promote a local vote on whether their ship should be allowed to sail for Vietnam. One of the disenchanted veterans, although he is never mentioned in the film, was John Kerry, who was first decorated for valor, and later became a leader of Vietnam Veterans Against the War and testified before Congress.

After the turning point of the Tet offensive in 1968, troop morale ebbed lower, the war seemed lost, and a protest movement encompassed active duty troops, coffeehouses near bases in America, underground GI newspapers, and a modern "underground railway" that helped soldiers desert and move to Canada. According to Pentagon figures, there were some 500,000 desertions during the Vietnam years.

The film has been written and directed by David Zeiger, who worked in an anti-war coffee- house near Fort Hood, Texas. In a narration spoken by Troy Garity, the son of Fonda and Tom Hayden, his film says, "The memory has been changed." The GI anti-war movement has disappeared from common knowledge, and a famous factoid from the period claims returning wounded veterans were spit on by "hippies" as they landed at American airports. According to the film, that is an urban legend, publicized in the film "Rambo II: First Blood."

When we reviewed "Sir! No Sir!" on "Ebert & Roeper," we cited the film's questions about the spitting story. There is a book on the subject, The Spitting Image, by Jerry Lembcke, whose research failed to find a single documented instance of such an event occurring in real life. I received many e-mails, however, from those who claimed knowledge of such incidents. The story persists, and true or false is part of a general eagerness to blame our loss in Vietnam to domestic protesters, while ignoring the substantial anti-war sentiment among troops in the field.

Parallels with the war in Iraq are obvious. One big difference is that the Vietnam-era forces were largely supplied by the draft, while our Iraq troops are either career soldiers or National Guard troops, some of them on their second or third tours of duty. The Vietnam-era draft not only generated anti-war sentiment among those of draft age, but supplied the army with soldiers who did not go very cheerfully into uniform. The willingness of today's National Guardsmen to continue in combat is courageous and admirable, but cannot be expected to last indefinitely, and the political cost of returning to the draft system would be incalculable.

A group of recent documentaries has highlighted a conflict between information and "disinformation," that Orwellian term for attempts to rewrite history. The archetype of "Hanoi Jane" has been used to obscure the fact that Fonda appeared before about 60,000 GIs who apparently agreed with her. The Swift Boat Veterans incredibly tried to deny John Kerry's patriotism. The global warming documentary "An Inconvenient Truth" is being attacked by a TV ad campaign, underwritten by energy companies, which extols the benefits of CO2.

No doubt "Sir! No Sir!" will inspire impassioned rebuttals. No doubt it is not an impartial film, not with Fonda's son as its narrator. What cannot be denied is the newsreel footage of uniformed troops in anti-war protests, of Fonda's uniformed audiences at "FTA" concerts, of headlines citing Pentagon concern about troop morale, the "fragging" of officers, the breakdown of discipline, and the unwillingness of increasing numbers of soldiers to fight a war they had started to believe was wrong.

Offline Gh0stFT

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #76 on: June 12, 2006, 05:25:17 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tumor
Modern militaries are far less likely to execute soldiers for dereliction of duty, insubordination, cowardice and other such offenses (in a time of war).

Tumor


no need to execute, what is happening with him now is enough, dont you think?
To quote some poster here: "You are here to pull the trigger without any question.

sorry but this club would be nothing for me, even with all the fancy things around.
The statement below is true.
The statement above is false.

Offline Toad

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #77 on: June 12, 2006, 05:35:34 PM »
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
I dont blame him for not wanting to go.  Three years in, and theres more IEDs than ever.  I certainly wouldn't to ride around Baghdad in a metal box filled with ammunition and fuel.  This is reminiscent of the 8th Airforce forcing B-17s to fly over Germany unescorted.


Really?

Do you have stats on how many or what percentage of losses we're suffering during "rides around Baghdad"?

Do you think 10% of the patrolling forces are lost?

Quote
On April 17, 1943, the Focke-Wulf plant at Bremen was attacked by a force of 115 Fortresses. The Luftwaffe came out in full strength that day, and 16 B-17s did not return, the heaviest loss rate to date. After that date, German fighter attacks began to become increasingly more effective and better coordinated, and bomber losses frequently were over ten percent of the attacking force, especially whenever the Fortresses went beyond the limited radius of their fighter escorts.


Did you really think you made an accurate historical comparison?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline AquaShrimp

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #78 on: June 12, 2006, 06:51:57 PM »
No, a more accurate comparison would be that of the most heavily booby-trapped areas in Vietnam.

And why did it take 3 years to finally get vehicles capable of clearing IEDs into Baghdad?

Offline Tumor

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #79 on: June 12, 2006, 06:57:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dos Equis
Roger Ebert

Quick question: When Jane Fonda was on her "FTA" concert tour during the Vietnam era, who was in her audience?....


Primarily draftee's... apples and oranges.  And she's still a traitorous *****.
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline Tumor

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #80 on: June 12, 2006, 06:58:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Gh0stFT
no need to execute, what is happening with him now is enough, dont you think?
To quote some poster here: "You are here to pull the trigger without any question.

sorry but this club would be nothing for me, even with all the fancy things around.


I think you missed my point.
"Dogfighting is useless"  :Erich Hartmann

Offline Toad

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« Reply #81 on: June 12, 2006, 07:16:22 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AquaShrimp
No, a more accurate comparison would be that of the most heavily booby-trapped areas in Vietnam.

And why did it take 3 years to finally get vehicles capable of clearing IEDs into Baghdad?


So your first comparison was totally bogus. Check.

Do you have any data to substantiate this latest comparison?

Why did it take three years?

Because it didn't?

Quote
LADSON, S.C.–(BUSINESS WIRE)–Sept. 22, 2004–Force Protection, Inc. announced the official delivery of a series of its top-rated mine
and blast protected vehicles to the US Army and the US Marine Corps


The Buffalo was first deployed in 2003 with the Army’s Corps of Engineers; hardly three years unless you start counting in 2000.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Maverick

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« Reply #82 on: June 12, 2006, 07:21:20 PM »
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Originally posted by AquaShrimp
No, a more accurate comparison would be that of the most heavily booby-trapped areas in Vietnam.

And why did it take 3 years to finally get vehicles capable of clearing IEDs into Baghdad?


Can you explain what you meant here by "vehicles capable of clearing IEDs"?
DEFINITION OF A VETERAN
A Veteran - whether active duty, retired, national guard or reserve - is someone who, at one point in their life, wrote a check made payable to "The United States of America", for an amount of "up to and including my life."
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Offline lukster

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« Reply #83 on: June 12, 2006, 07:23:19 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dos Equis
According to Pentagon figures, there were some 500,000 desertions during the Vietnam years.


I don't believe that. I'm gonna look it up before calling bs on ya though.

BTW, draft dodger <> deserter
« Last Edit: June 12, 2006, 07:28:51 PM by lukster »

Offline lukster

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« Reply #84 on: June 12, 2006, 07:42:07 PM »
http://talkleft.com/new_archives/014227.html

"In 1974, President Ford offered clemency to Vietnam draft resisters and deserters. Only 27,000 of 350,000 eligible applied. The offer expired on April 1, 1975. In 1977, President Carter pardoned those who dodged the war by not registering or fleeing the country."

I can't find a breakdown for the number of draft dodgers vs deserters but based on this article the combined total was much less than your 500,000.

Offline Debonair

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« Reply #85 on: June 12, 2006, 07:50:34 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
So your first comparison was totally bogus. Check.

Do you have any data to substantiate this latest comparison?

Why did it take three years?

Because it didn't?



The Buffalo was first deployed in 2003 with the Army’s Corps of Engineers; hardly three years unless you start counting in 2000.


thats when they started planning the invasion:noid :noid :noid :t :t :O
bush = yamamoto

misspelled bush, lol

Offline Hangtime

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« Reply #86 on: June 12, 2006, 07:51:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Dos Equis

Quick question: When Jane Fonda was on her "FTA" concert tour during the Vietnam era, who was in her audience? The quick answer from most people would probably be, "anti-war hippies, left-wingers and draft-dodgers." The correct answer would be: American troops on active duty, many of them in uniform.

 


"The Girls will say 'Yes' to Guys that say "NO!". An off duty troops entire existence off base is directed at getting LAID. Was the anit-war movements puppet masters manipulating the situation and camping out near bases with all the 'entertainments' an off duty troop would enjoy? You bet. You think a GI would give a damn what the underlying message is when the drinks are free and the grapefruit is easy? Not then, and not now.

I find it incredible that a society that sits on it's wide fat tulips and watches unmoved hate filled nutballs desecrate the funerals of servicemen.. and then entertain the thought that teams of venom spewing freaks didn't haunt airports and bus stations to shout hate speach, spit upon and denegrate GI's coming home from the Land of Bad Things.

I was there.. and it happened to me. Don't continue to insult our service with more lies or obfuscate the facts with PC rehtoric.. we served, it happened, and Jane was and remains a piece of ****, not symbolic; but in fact for her treason.
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Offline AquaShrimp

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« Reply #87 on: June 12, 2006, 07:51:48 PM »
Maverick, there are some large trucks that have booms and heavy armor that can disable and detonate IEDs from a safe distance.

Toad, the figures are 18,500 wounded, 2,500 dead, with 30 to 40% of the casualities coming from IED attacks.

The specialty vehicles did not arrive in any numbers back in 2004.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #88 on: June 12, 2006, 08:06:25 PM »
So about 800 dead and 7000 wounded from IED's? Let's just accept your numbers. Now go ahead and compare those to your latest statement whiche, when we substitute the new "Vietnam" allegory for the "B-17's" basically says:;

"I certainly wouldn't to ride around Baghdad in a metal box filled with ammunition and fuel. This is reminiscent of the most heavily booby-trapped areas in Vietnam."

OK, how reminiscent? You're saying that 30-40% of all casualties in VietNam were due to booby traps? Got anything to back that up?


Now as to arrival of the Cougars and Buffalos.... are you now qualifying your previous statement? You admit you're simply wrong?
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

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1st Lt. Ehren Watada - Hero or Disgrace
« Reply #89 on: June 12, 2006, 08:07:55 PM »
BTW, as for Watada, let him take his case before a Court Martial. If he can win it, good for him.

If not, jail for him.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!