Author Topic: 'Knock Knock" (Read 1799 times)

Sandman · « **Reply #30 on:** June 16, 2006, 12:51:20 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by J_A_B
"The authorties want in? They can knock, and wait on the doorstep till I answer the door and present thier credentials when I ask for them and state thier business."

So when you're having a heart attack and dial 911 for help but collapse, you want the authorities to wait outside until you answer the door for them, right?

J_A_B

Um... if you called 911, for all intents and purposes, you've invited the authorities into your house. If you don't answer the door, it's probably not a good idea to start shooting if they let themselves in.

J_A_B · « **Reply #31 on:** June 16, 2006, 12:54:55 AM »

AlGorithm--

Your examples illustrate one important point--sometimes the police may make mistakes (they're human too, although the public expects them to be superhuman). If those people had weapons and had they shot back, they'd likely have wound up in jail or dead. However, since they reacted in a more sane manner, they can look foreward to the rest of their lives and the individuals who screwed up will likely be facing appropriate repercussions.

J_A_B

AlGorithm · « **Reply #32 on:** June 16, 2006, 01:01:54 AM »

Quote

Holden McGroin wrote;
So Algorithm,
Is it your position that none of this would have happened if there was a requirement for the police to announce themselves?

Where do you get that? Did I make that claim somewhere?

Look up the word "context". My post was in response to;

Quote

Saintaw wrote;
butbutbutbut... if you do nothing wrong, the po-lice will never come into your house.....right?

I then posted links to several cases where police stormed a home where nobody had done anything wrong.

Now, read the definition of "context" again. Without moving your lips this time.

Keep up the good work. Enough bovine excrement can obscure any point.

J_A_B · « **Reply #33 on:** June 16, 2006, 01:04:31 AM »

"If you don't answer the door, it's probably not a good idea to start shooting if they let themselves in."

It's not a good idea to start shooting regardless of whether it was a 911 call or a warrant. Either way, it won't end well for the guy doing the shooting.

Any responsible gun owner knows that target identification is highly important; someone who just blindly starts shooting at an unnounced "invader" is an idiot--and a poster child for gun control. Yes, you might shoot a burglar...on the other hand, you might shoot the local police, or your kid who's sneaking in after a long night out.

J_A_B

Sandman · « **Reply #34 on:** June 16, 2006, 01:06:59 AM »

I'm going to go out on a limb, but I'll bet your kid doesn't kick the door in during entry.

J_A_B · « **Reply #35 on:** June 16, 2006, 01:13:09 AM »

"I'm going to go out on a limb, but I'll bet your kid doesn't kick the door in during entry."

Smart theives don't, either.

J_A_B

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #36 on:** June 16, 2006, 01:21:40 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by AlGorithm
Where do you get that? Did I make that claim somewhere?

Look up the word "context". My post was in response to;

I was asking a question about your post within the thread that is talking about a SC decision. I thought you had a point. sorry.

Hangtime · « **Reply #37 on:** June 16, 2006, 01:36:41 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by J_A_B
"I'm going to go out on a limb, but I'll bet your kid doesn't kick the door in during entry."

Smart theives don't, either.
J_A_B

Home Invasion Robbery Turns Into Kidnapping
NBC 10.com, PA - 5 hours ago
EGG HARBOR TOWNSHIP, Pa. -- A home invasion near the Jersey shore turned into a kidnapping Thursday morning. "She was terrified," Fitzpatrick said. ...
Police search for men in SW home invasion

Journal Inquirer, CT - 10 hours ago
SOUTH WINDSOR - Police are searching for three men who were involved in a home invasion on Ellington Road where a male resident was stabbed. ...
Man Attacked During Home Invasion WFSB
South Windsor Condo Target Of Home Invasion, Stabbing NBC30.com
South Windsor Man Stabbed Hartford Courant
WTNH - all 6 related »

TVNZ Further Details Emerge In South Auckland Home Invasion
newswire.co.nz, New Zealand - 2 hours ago
Her alleged attacker forced his way into her Pukekohe home on Tuesday night and she was only able to escape after being driven to an ATM to withdraw money. Vicious Home Invasion Was Premeditated: Police newswire.co.nz Pukekohe home invasion and sexual assault was pre-planned - police Radio New Zealand Vicious home invasion, sexual assault was premeditated Radio New Zealand all 30 related »

Another home invasion takes place
Shelbyville Times-Gazette, TN - 16 hours ago
By David Melson. The second robbery in eight days involving a home invasion occurred early Wednesday on Burt Street. David De Jesus ...

Family Terrorized In Home Invasion
Click 2 Houston.com, TX - 18 hours ago
... beaten and that women and children were tied up while the men ransacked the home. Officials said one of the family members walked in on the invasion and was ...

Family tied up during home invasion
abc13.com, TX - 19 hours ago
By Christine Dobbyn. (6/15/06 - KTRK/HOUSTON) - A family in northwest Harris County was tied up an robbed overnight by a group of men who broke into their home. ...

Home invasion robber caught
Baker County Standard, FL - 7 hours ago
A Macclenny couple were the victims of a home invasion robbery last Tuesday afternoon as a young white male suspect entered their home and held Marvin J. Johns ...

Home invasion case rescheduled
Beverly Citizen, United States - 14 hours ago
A Danvers man involved in a Peabody home invasion last month has battled psychiatric disorders, according to his family. Joshua ...

Teen, Man Pistol-Whipped During Home Invasion
ClickonSA.com, TX - 15 hours ago
SAN ANTONIO -- Police are looking for two men on suspicion that they were involved in a home invasion Thursday morning on the West Side. ...

Arrests Made In Violent Home Invasion And Chase
KUTV, UT - Jun 14, 2006
(KUTV) SALT LAKE CITY Three people are in the hospital and three others are in custody after a violent home invasion robbery and police chase. ...

New! Get the latest news on Home invasion with Google Alerts.

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Henh. and that's just todays home invasion news.

Seems that less than 'smart' thieves are a mite thick on the ground in this civilized society we live in, enh?

yah kick in my door, yer asking for a point defense demonstration.

I take my chances in court afterwards.

Saintaw · « **Reply #38 on:** June 16, 2006, 02:06:58 AM »

AlGorithm, I appologise, I forgot to use the sarcasm colour!

J_A_B · « **Reply #39 on:** June 16, 2006, 02:39:46 AM »

"Seems that less than 'smart' thieves are a mite thick on the ground in this civilized society we live in, enh?
yah kick in my door, yer asking for a point defense demonstration.
I take my chances in court afterwards."

I never said it doesn't happen, just that it isn't too smart--and they weren't, IMO. Several of them were caught even by the time those stories were posted.

If you give the wrong people a "point defense demonstration", your chances in court (should you still be among the living) won't be too good, *and* you'll be giving ammunition to the anti-gun crowd at the same time.

If the police have a warrant or other sufficient cause (such as the aforementioned 911 call), they can enter whether or not you open the door for them. It's silly to demand otherwise. What, you can't search that house for the methlab because the occupants pretend they're not home and won't answer the door? Old Bob's neighbors are worried because they inexplicably haven't seen him in 3 days, but since nobody answers you can't go in and check? No, there are plenty of good reasons to force entry into a residence--as well as some bad reasons that *still* shouldn't end with bloodshed (for example, the errors Algorithm posted).

If you're a gun owner, it's your responsibility to identify your target before you shoot. You might think you prefer to shoot first and "take your chances in court", but that preference might just bite you in the rear someday.

J_A_B

FUNKED1 · « **Reply #40 on:** June 16, 2006, 03:06:50 AM »

Hooray for teh freedum!!!

lazs2 · « **Reply #41 on:** June 16, 2006, 08:52:44 AM »

I think we are all missing the root problem here.... the getting the warrant part.

It should be extremely hard to get a warrant unless you allready have the suspect detained.

I would not believe anyone who broke down my door shouting "police we have a warrant" unless....

Unless I was a major criminal. Then it would be believable. If not... they either have the wrong address or they aren't really police. In either case I am gonna head shoot and deal with the negotiator or the real police when they come.

It should be extremely difficult to get a warrant on a law abiding citizen and.... I believe that, for the most part, it is.

A dangerous criminal is something else. That doesn't mean that you suspect the guy living there might have a banned AK or sawed off shotgun or an ounce of coke. Arrest the guy at work or leaving his home and then ask him for the keys and use the warrant then.

Nash makes it sound like the supremes said that cops can simply break down anyones door with no warrant. That is not the case.

We do need a way to make sure that a warrant that may include home invasion is not a frivolous thing tho.

It is the warrant process that needs to be looked at here.

lazs

john9001 · « **Reply #42 on:** June 16, 2006, 09:03:40 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by J_A_B
[
If you're a gun owner, it's your responsibility to identify your target before you shoot. You might think you prefer to shoot first and "take your chances in court", but that preference might just bite you in the rear someday.

J_A_B [/B]

if your a cop it is your responsibilty to identify the right house that you are going to break down the door of.

Nash · « **Reply #43 on:** June 16, 2006, 09:09:57 AM »

My money's bettin' on warrants becoming less relevant, not more.

Either way, lazs is copacetic with the disturbing spectacle of cops marching up to people's front doors, simply kicking them in and entering their houses unannounced.

I'm surprised, and yet..... I'm not.

lukster · « **Reply #44 on:** June 16, 2006, 09:10:06 AM »

Here's something to think about.

In which do you think both criminal home invasions and midnight raids by the police are more likely to occur:

A nation of gun owners

or

A nation of non gun owners

?