Author Topic: 262 Wingtips  (Read 743 times)

Offline Raptor

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262 Wingtips
« on: June 18, 2006, 11:25:14 AM »
Uhh... can we get some duct tape or something for the 262 wings? By nosing down at 400mph (not very sudden either) I managed to rip my right wingtip off... not both like usual, just one wingtip. Something tells me this isnt very accurate:confused:

Offline Krusty

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262 Wingtips
« Reply #1 on: June 18, 2006, 02:07:11 PM »
Something is wrong with the 262 wing stress levels. I don't know how strong they SHOULD be, but they shouldn't be this weak. They were FIGHTERS after all, and they flew in heavy combat situations. I think if the wings in real life snapped off so much the damn thing would have been grounded in mid 1944!

Definitely needs tweaking. Something. Either the wings are too weak, or the G forces are too strong for certain manuvers -- I don't know what causes it.

Offline Kev367th

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262 Wingtips
« Reply #2 on: June 18, 2006, 03:05:35 PM »
This applies to a few planes -

Tiffy - Sheds it's big fat wings at the drop of a hat.
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Offline Debonair

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262 Wingtips
« Reply #3 on: June 18, 2006, 08:20:45 PM »
at very high speed you should be able to apply quite stong ammounts of force with relatively little control movment:noid :noid :noid

Offline EagleDNY

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262 Wingtips
« Reply #4 on: June 21, 2006, 12:58:24 PM »
Agree with you on the 262 wings - I've ripped em myself.
Anything strong enough to mount a load of R4M rockets on shouldn't rip like a french biplane.

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Offline Lusche

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262 Wingtips
« Reply #5 on: June 21, 2006, 01:07:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by EagleDNY

Anything strong enough to mount a load of R4M rockets on shouldn't rip like a french biplane.

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Hmm, i think french biplanes could have mounted R4M rockets, twelve of them (typical number per wing on 262) weighed only around 130lbs...
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Offline EagleDNY

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R4m Specs
« Reply #6 on: June 21, 2006, 02:10:49 PM »
I think they were a bit larger than that - see below excerpt:

The solution was to replace the gun with a small solid-fuel rocket engine, mounting a warhead similar to that of the cannon shells. The R4M in fact used a much larger warhead of 55 mm, one that was selected to guarantee a kill with a single hit. Each R4M weighted 32 kg, and was provided with enough fuel to be fired effectively from 1000 m, outside the range of the bomber's defensive guns. A battery typically consisted of two groups of 12 rockets, and when all 24 were fired at once they would fill an area about 15 by 30 m at 1000 m, dense enough that one was almost certain to hit its target. The main body of the rocket consisted of a simple steel tube with flip-out fins on the tail for stabilization. Two warheads were available for the R4M, the common PB-3 with a 4 kg shaped charge for anti-aircraft use, and the larger PB-2 for use in the anti-tank role.

Only a small number of aircraft were ever fitted with the R4M, mostly Messerschmitt Me 262's, which mounted them on small wooden racks under the wing just outside of the engines. In service the weapon proved deadly, with one attack in April 1945 downing 30 B-17's for the loss of only three Me 262's. However by this point the war was already over.

After the war the R4M served as the pattern for both the US 2.75 in (70 mm) FFAR (Fin-Folding Aerial Rocket) and the larger 5 in (127 mm) Zuni.
------------------

32 Kg per rocket is a little over 70 lbs per - total battery of 24 rockets is nearly 1,700lbs.  I don't think we can get that on a Nieuport, but we might get off the ground in a SPAD   ;)

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Offline BugsBunny

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Re: R4m Specs
« Reply #7 on: June 21, 2006, 02:30:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by EagleDNY
1000 m, outside the range of the bomber's defensive guns.  


Silly Germans.  No wonder they lost so many fighters :O

Offline EagleDNY

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bombing losses
« Reply #8 on: June 21, 2006, 03:08:03 PM »
Just be glad the 262's with R4Ms didn't appear earlier.  I don't think the 8th AF would have lasted very long losing 10 B17s for every 262 lost.  That's 300 Americans lost for every 262 pilot, some of which will parachute to safety.  Not a good ratio.

Offline Lusche

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Re: R4m Specs
« Reply #9 on: June 21, 2006, 03:42:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by EagleDNY
I think they were a bit larger than that - see below excerpt:

The solution was to replace the gun with a small solid-fuel rocket engine, mounting a warhead similar to that of the cannon shells. The R4M in fact used a much larger warhead of 55 mm, one that was selected to guarantee a kill with a single hit. Each R4M weighted 32 kg, and was provided with enough fuel to be fired effectively from 1000 m, outside the range of the bomber's defensive guns. A battery typically consisted of two groups of 12 rockets, and when all 24 were fired at once they would fill an area about 15 by 30 m at 1000 m, dense enough that one was almost certain to hit its target. The main body of the rocket consisted of a simple steel tube with flip-out fins on the tail for stabilization. Two warheads were available for the R4M, the common PB-3 with a 4 kg shaped charge for anti-aircraft use, and the larger PB-2 for use in the anti-tank role.

Only a small number of aircraft were ever fitted with the R4M, mostly Messerschmitt Me 262's, which mounted them on small wooden racks under the wing just outside of the engines. In service the weapon proved deadly, with one attack in April 1945 downing 30 B-17's for the loss of only three Me 262's. However by this point the war was already over.

After the war the R4M served as the pattern for both the US 2.75 in (70 mm) FFAR (Fin-Folding Aerial Rocket) and the larger 5 in (127 mm) Zuni.
------------------

32 Kg per rocket is a little over 70 lbs per - total battery of 24 rockets is nearly 1,700lbs.  I don't think we can get that on a Nieuport, but we might get off the ground in a SPAD   ;)

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This is from the english Wikipedia, and they are wrong about it.  The article in thgerman version of Wikipedia is more elaborate:

"Hull & Equipment: 1.5kg
Propelling charge 2.5kg
Explosives            1.0kg
Total Mass           5.0kg"

"Die deutsche Luftrüstung 1933-1945" by Heinz J. Nowarra, Volume 4, pages 88/89 gives a total mass of 4kg

Warbirds Resource Group says 3.85kg

While these values vary quite a bit, it´s clear that a R4M is nowhere near 32kg
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Offline Debonair

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262 Wingtips
« Reply #10 on: June 21, 2006, 05:54:45 PM »
lol :O :O :noid :noid

Offline Krusty

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262 Wingtips
« Reply #11 on: June 21, 2006, 05:58:50 PM »
Don't trust wikipedia for ANYTHING, folks. Get it from a book, or a webpage. NOT Wikipedia. It's pure CRAP. It's 100% user-submitted info. And, other users can CHANGE said info. There was an issue with some politician going in and changing unflattering entries, and he was tracked back to capitol hill via his IP addy that he used to change them.

Do NOT trust wiki. Ever. Just go anywhere else for info.


EDIT: One webpage listed this:

"R4M (Rakete 4kg. Minenkopf) rockets were fired from wooden launch rails mounted underwing. "

If the 4 really is for 4kg, that makes sense.

EDIT2:

http://www.warbirdsresourcegroup.org/LRG/r4m.html

I trust that source on the matter. I'm inclined to believe it's more or less accurate.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 06:02:35 PM by Krusty »