Author Topic: More Freedumb  (Read 1490 times)

Offline Brenjen

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« Reply #15 on: June 21, 2006, 11:26:47 AM »
The U.S. wiretapping is all legal. Even the far left senators & representatives know this; that's why they have not raised a holy uproar over it. If the govt. of the U.S. wants to record every conversation on every phone & every P/C e-mail & I.M. they can.

 The laws of the U.S. changed after 9-11, we went into it with our eyes open & now we do not like the outcome - too bad. We the people have to make a choice.

 We are in this for the long haul folks, the time frame was open ended when all this started & the govt. through the media said this could go on for generations. Keep in mind that we didn't start this terror campaign; the hijackings & the subsequent loss of life on 9-11 were the straw that broke the camels back! Those were not the first attacks on our citizens, they were just the ones that woke our leadership up & caused them to say ENOUGH! We should not just forget the Leon Klinghoffers or the Robert Stethems of this world.

 I am in the minority, I feel like we are not doing enough. We should institute the draft & put as many able bodied men under arms as our country can mobilize & then remove every threat to our country whether they are hostile nations or terrorist gangs. I would rather we go down with a roar swinging than a whine & a whimper cowering in a corner.

 We are either going to win & be safe in our own country or we will lose & no one will be safe anywhere.

Offline Brenjen

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« Reply #16 on: June 21, 2006, 11:27:55 AM »
This was copied from another forum & it highlights what I have felt all along.


"Let me count the atrocities committed against Americans (and Westerners in general) by Islamic "extremists:

In November 1979, fifty-two American citizens were taken hostage when militant Islamic students stormed the U.S. Embassy in Tehran.
Between 1982 and 1992, 30 westerners were kidnapped and held hostage in Lebanon.
In April 1983, a vehicle packed with explosives was driven into the U.S. Embassy compound in Beirut, killing 63 people.
In October 1983, a large truck containing canisters of explosive gas wrapped with explosives was driven into the U.S. Marine Corps headquarters in Beirut, killing 241 U.S. servicemen and wounding over 100 more.
In December 1983, the U.S. Embassy in Kuwait was bombed in a series of attacks whose targets also included the French embassy, the control tower at the airport, the country's main oil refinery, and a residential area for employees of the American corporation Raytheon. Five people were killed and more than 80 others were injured.
In September 1984, a truck bomb exploded outside a U.S. Embassy annex near Beirut killing 24 people, two of whom were U.S. military personnel.
In December 1984, Kuwait Airways Flight 221, on its way from Kuwait to Pakistan, was hijacked and diverted to Tehran. The hijackers demanded the release of the 17 terrorists convicted for the December 1983 bombing of the U.S. Embassy in Kuwait. When the demand wasn't met, the hijackers killed two American officials from the U.S. Agency for International Development.
In June 1985, TWA Flight 847 was hijacked en route from Athens to Rome and forced to land in Beirut, where the hijackers held the plane for 17 days demanding the release of convicted Islamic terrorists. When these demands weren't met, hostage Robert Dean Stethem, a U.S. Navy diver, was shot and his body dumped on the airport tarmac.
In October 1985, four gunmen hijacked the Italian cruise ship Achille Lauro and demanded the release of Palestinian prisoners in Egypt, Italy, and elsewhere. When the demands weren't met, they killed Leon Klinghoffer, a 69-year-old disabled American tourist.
In December 1985, airports in Rome and Vienna were bombed, killing 20 people, five of whom were Americans.
In April 1986, an American soldier was killed when a bomb was detonated at a discotheque in West Berlin known to be popular with off-duty U.S. servicemen. A Turkish woman was killed, and nearly 200 others were wounded.
In April 1986, three American University of Beirut employees were found shot to death near Beirut.
In April 1986, a terrorist bomb exploded on-board TWA Flight 840, killing four. Among those killed were Maria Stylian Klug and her infant daughter Demetra, who were blown out of the plane and fell thousands of feet to their deaths.
In December 1988, Pan Am Flight 103 from London to New York exploded over the small town of Lockerbie, Scotland. All 259 people on board were killed, along with 11 on the ground.
In January 1993, two CIA agents were shot and killed as they entered CIA headquarters in Langley, Virginia.
In February 1993, a van packed with explosives was detonated in the underground parking garage of the World Trade Center in New York City, killing six people and injuring over 1000.
In November 1995, a car bomb exploded at a U.S. military complex in Riyadh, Saudi Arabia, killing seven service men and women.
In June 1996, a truck bomb destroyed the Khobar Towers, a U.S. Air Force barracks in Dhahran, Saudi Arabia, killing 19 and injuring over 500.
In August 1998, simultaneous attacks on two U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania killed 224.
In October 2000, the USS Cole was attacked in the port of Aden, Yemen, killing 17 U.S. Navy sailors.
On September 11, 2001, coordinated attacks using hijacked U.S. airliners killed approximately 3000 in New York City, Washington, D.C., and Shanksville, Pennsylvania.
In January 2002, reporter Daniel Pearl was kidnapped in Pakistan. The following month, his captors released a video tape showing his murder by decapitation.
In April 2004, American contractor Nick Berg was kidnapped in Iraq. In May, a video was released on the internet showing Berg's gruesome decapitation.
In June 2004, American contractor Paul Johnson was kidnapped in Saudi Arabia. His captors demanded the release of all al-Quaeda prisoners by the Saudi government. When their demands were not met, they beheaded Mr. Johnson, and posted pictures of his decapitated body on the internet.
Do you get the picture? We may have only realized we were at war on September 11, 2001, but the enemy has been at war against us for the past 25 years."

Offline KgB

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« Reply #17 on: June 21, 2006, 12:11:56 PM »
Could you calculate amount of corpses made by US Army before 1979 and after?
Honestly no wonder they pissed.
"It is the greatest inequality to try to make unequal things equal."-Aristotle

Offline lukster

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« Reply #18 on: June 21, 2006, 12:13:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nash
That's all very well, Ripsnort.

Sorry if my question was a little vague, but what I really wanted was a source for your claim that the terrorists were busted as a result of "illegal internet tapping."

I look forward to that. Thanks in advance.


Do Canadians even have a constitutional right to privacy? If not then any wiretapping or eavesdropping would seem to be legal there.

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #19 on: June 21, 2006, 12:41:57 PM »
I thought the us constitution covered canada?
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Offline Maverick

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« Reply #20 on: June 21, 2006, 12:46:47 PM »
I'm curious here.

Which is the bigger problem?

The fact that govt. agencies make use of commercially available data tools?

or

The fact that there ARE commercially available data mining operations outside of the constitutional constraints the govt. has to operate under?
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Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #21 on: June 21, 2006, 01:49:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
I'm curious here.

Which is the bigger problem?

The fact that govt. agencies make use of commercially available data tools?

or

The fact that there ARE commercially available data mining operations outside of the constitutional constraints the govt. has to operate under?
The latter. But hey, its okay if some stalker uses the information out there, but "HOLY CRIPES if the FEDS use it, BAD BAD BAD..."personally I don't understand that logic...:huh

Offline Shamus

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« Reply #22 on: June 21, 2006, 02:01:55 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
I'm curious here.

Which is the bigger problem?

The fact that govt. agencies make use of commercially available data tools?

or

The fact that there ARE commercially available data mining operations outside of the constitutional constraints the govt. has to operate under?


Well in Michigan there is a bill on the Gov's desk that i'm sure she is going to sign to make it illegal for private citizens and business's to access this info, as expected government access is still fine.

If they precluded government access as well, there would be no market and those data bases would dissapear, that wont happen, they want to keep the nice little end around of the 4th.

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Offline Dos Equis

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« Reply #23 on: June 21, 2006, 02:15:04 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
I'm curious here.

Which is the bigger problem?

The fact that govt. agencies make use of commercially available data tools?

or

The fact that there ARE commercially available data mining operations outside of the constitutional constraints the govt. has to operate under?


The latter, by a wide margin. It's like TSA, eventually the federal government realized it had to federalize airport security. Same here, if your business is to collect records for data mining, it's a lot better if your paycheck comes from Uncle Sam.

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #24 on: June 21, 2006, 02:29:19 PM »
dos ekk... in this age of cell phones and cordless phones.. do you really expect that your conversations are secure?

I don't want the government to listen in but I don't care who is in power.... I"m not gonna trust em.

If we run em out of money that is the best defense... the fewer people they have to monitor conversations the more secure our freedom will be... the less tax money they have to mind our business the less they will mind our business.

We neither of us can understand the other.... I can't understand how you want more and more and bigger and bigger government and then are amazed and shocked when they abuse the power you gave em.

Thats what governments do.


lazs

Offline Dos Equis

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« Reply #25 on: June 21, 2006, 02:50:39 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
dos ekk... in this age of cell phones and cordless phones.. do you really expect that your conversations are secure?

We neither of us can understand the other.... I can't understand how you want more and more and bigger and bigger government and then are amazed and shocked when they abuse the power you gave em.

Thats what governments do.


lazs


Not a properly structured government with three branches that can put checks and balances on each other. The framers understood this. Governments role is to keep private interests at bay. To build roads, to set up power plants or regulate the purchase of power for the citizenry from private power generation companies.

When one branch of government starts running programs off the books, then it's time to go dig your foxhole. There was legislation to allow congressional oversight of the tapping program. Bush felt he needed something where only he got the info, and so he went and did it.

That's bad.

On your first point. I can decide to employ my own strong encryption on phone calls. It's called zFone and it was written by the guy who wrote PGP. I'm pretty damn sure that nobody can act as man in the middle or spoof that one.

And in about 2-3 years, everyone will use encryption. The Clinton administration saw that, and tried to get in with the clipper chip. Remember that? They backdoored that puppy.

The internet will also make it hard if terror units suspect they are being surveilled. That's why keeping it secret is important, to let them think its ok to use cellphones if they get rid of them quick. That's probably what Zarko thought just before the bomb hit him.

When the executive branch goes rogue, and people start leaking - it's just doing more harm than good.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 02:55:47 PM by Dos Equis »

Offline Brenjen

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« Reply #26 on: June 21, 2006, 03:06:25 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by KgB
Could you calculate amount of corpses made by US Army before 1979 and after?
Honestly no wonder they pissed.


 I don't really understand the question but...I'm 100% certain more people have died over the lifespan of Islam & in the name of Islam than the lifespan of the U.S. Army & the majority of the dead because of the U.S. Army has been in defense of our country or one of our allies.

 But making the U.S. war on terror about body counts is just an attempt at  distraction from the main issue & that is we were attacked for many years before we acted & when we did everyone acts like we should have limited our actions to a police/arrest type action against a handfull of murderers.

 I do not have a problem with the govt. keeping records of my phone & internet traffic because I am not trying to hide terrorist activities. If you are worried about it then you must have something to hide. I recall someone in the CIA saying way back in the early 80's that one of the first internet programs they instituted along with the NSA was for listening to conversations & watch for key words & phrases like  - "bomb,shoot,assassinate,overthrow,president etc" & that computer program has/had been running for years before they ever mentioned it in public. Somewhere in the belly of CIA HQ there is a monster bank of reel to reels with miles of magnetic tape no one has ever even looked at.

 Be on the lookout for the black nelicopters & the black vans...they may know you cheated on your wife & smoked a joint :noid

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #27 on: June 21, 2006, 03:10:29 PM »
At first glance you would appear to be insane but on further study I would say that you simply do not understand historical timelines.

To say that the three branches have worked to stop intrusions into our human rights is naive at best... it matters not what political group is in power...

When the left is in power they take away the rights of the right... When the right is in power they take away the lefts... What we end up with is less and less rights every year.... examples would be right wing admins attacking groups like the SLA and other left wing fringe groups and using their "threat" to expedite (play fast and loose with) the "laws" and then...

when the lefties get in they attack right wing groups like militias and oddball fundamenalist religions and loners who shun society like.... Koresh and Randy weaver... with the same results of course.... "stern measures are needed"  rights trampled.. we all suffer.

The bill of rights are not even a guarentee....  the left leaning judicial and legeslative destroys the ones they hate when they are in power and the right wing guys destroy the rest when they are in power.

You want to give em more power.  you are the problem not the solution... your "the right kind of dictator is ok" thinking is what got us into this mess.   The rights you give "the good government" come back to bite you in the butt when the guys you don't like get in...  

They all have plenty of shady powers right now to pick and choose which ones they will use or not use on whichever group ticks em off.

The only solution is less government with even stronger bill of rights.

lazs

Offline Stringer

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« Reply #28 on: June 21, 2006, 03:36:19 PM »
[ ...but hey, no one died because of lack of intelligence.....;) [/B][/QUOTE]

Rip,
Frontline had an interesting program regarding just that.....the lack of intelligence with regards to Iraq, WMD's and Bush's '03 State of the Union address and the infamous "16 words", and Powell's speech to the UN Security Council (written by Scooter) and the lack of intelligence to back up the claims made in those speeches.  If you get the chance to get a transcript, I would do it.  Tenet took a big beating in that piece and rightfully so.

I'm by no means a leftie (sorry but you'll have to put your label maker away ;) )....but I do believe in accountability.  Americans have died and are dying due to a lack of intelligence.

I agree with what Hang said in another thread.....there is no "win" in a low-intensity" conflict...just prolongation and stagnation......since we're there, then go all out to get it done.
« Last Edit: June 21, 2006, 03:40:39 PM by Stringer »

Offline Ripsnort

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« Reply #29 on: June 21, 2006, 03:42:52 PM »
There were WMD in Iraq, just not in the huge numbers that were assumed to be there. I'm a firm believer that the WMD was a front to get a foothold in the middle east, and put a base of operations there to keep an eye on the rest of the mindless radical muslims (Syria, Iran) and to depose of an idiot who not only harbored terrorists but would have used them sincerely in the future if given a chance. So WMD or not, it was a brilliant move by this admininstration and history will prove that it was the right thing to do.

Sleep tight tonight, the fights not near your house, thanks to a few good men.