Author Topic: The United States of Europe  (Read 2166 times)

Offline mietla

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The United States of Europe
« Reply #30 on: November 02, 2000, 12:42:00 AM »
Damn it, forgot to put an emotion face again. I keep assuming that people can get  what I'm talking about without those siily faces. "Smile now"   , "be sad now"   , "I realy hate you" , "I really love you"   etc.

[This message has been edited by mietla (edited 11-02-2000).]

Offline -lynx-

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« Reply #31 on: November 02, 2000, 07:04:00 AM »
 
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As for Tony Blair, I'd like to ask him if his wife being a lawyer had anything to do with lawyers being excluded from IR35.
I'm sure it's somewhere along the same lines as lifting tobacco advertising ban on Formula 1 having nothing   (I say - nothing!) to do with a million pounds donation to the Labour party from the F1 boss.

As for IR35 - I hear you... You, tax avoiding, dividend paying, socially irresponsible and obviously good for nothing but for screwing yet more tax outta you person...  

Can someone please make a terrain with Reading Kennethside tax-office building in it?

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lynx
13 Sqn RAF

Offline Rickenbacker

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« Reply #32 on: November 02, 2000, 09:16:00 AM »
Well, of course the easter european countries aren't equal to Germany or France economically. We need someone to exploit  .


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        Rickenbacker (Ricken)

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the Independent Swedish Air Force

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #33 on: November 02, 2000, 10:26:00 AM »
Mielta - you really need to use smileys - comments can be taken either way when actually spoken, nevermind when written down.

For instance:

In fact, your English is better than some of the native English speakers present.

I could take this as a slight against myself, rather than as a joke as it was intended. A smiley (despite how lame they might be) would clear this up. It would avoid misunderstandings like those described by yourself.

Drummer - your English is fine, but I doubt the information you give. Firstly, Great Britain was virtually bankrupt after the war. The whole country had given virtually everything it had in WW2. Why shouldn't we ask for the costs to be paid back? Also £68 million is a lot of money now, but in 1945 it would be equivalent to several BILLION pounds - are you sure that's right?

Defending Poland was a logistical impossibility once it Hitler had amassed his forces - we couldn't even halt them in France, which was a mere 23 miles from Dover. From what I can see, trying to 'save' Poland would have been futile. Hindsight is a wonderful thing, but remember that Britain and France wanted to avoid war at any cost, even if that meant sacrificing allies. Not pleasant, but I can empathise with their sentiments.

Mietla - you're our air cover? God help us!   Good to know we got some capable help while we plaster... er... oops almost gave away our mission then! Don't know who might be listening.  

See you Sunday.  



[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 11-02-2000).]
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline mietla

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« Reply #34 on: November 02, 2000, 12:48:00 PM »
   
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Originally posted by Dowding:

In fact, your English is better than some of the native English speakers present.

I could take this as a slight against myself, rather than as a joke as it was intended.

Oh, c’mon Dowding, your Queen's English criticized by a Pole?     I wasn't speaking about anyone in particular. It's just that when you read this board, you'll find a lot of examples of poor language usage. We are all "guilty" here.

Besides, as far as I know an exquisite and/or efficacious command of the English language is not a prerequisite to expressing your opinions here.


 
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. Firstly, Great Britain was virtually bankrupt after the war. The whole country had given virtually everything it had in WW2. Why shouldn't we ask for the costs to be paid back? Also £68 million is a lot of money now, but in 1945 it would be equivalent to several BILLION pounds - are you sure that's right?
[/b]

We have to disagree again. Polish pilots fought directly for your country (some of them directly in British units.), and may I add they were pretty damn effective at that.

If  GB was broke, Poland was wiped out.  

 
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remember that Britain and France wanted to avoid war at any cost, even if that meant sacrificing allies. Not pleasant, but I can empathize with their sentiments.
[/b]

That is exactly what I said in an original post. We agree again.

 
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Mietla - you're our air cover? God help us!     (Image removed from quote.)
[/b]

Don’t you worry Dowding, we’ll keep your behind nice and clear (so to speak). Hope you won’t send us another £68 million bill for the service.    


[This message has been edited by mietla (edited 11-02-2000).]

Offline Asmodan PL

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« Reply #35 on: November 02, 2000, 03:11:00 PM »
I really don't see any point of this discussion because U dowding was learning different History then other European Countries !!!
 
(I was in UK this Year and old people are much more understanding then the youngsters)

BTW I have family in UK.
U cant tell me that U are so great.
Your own leader Winston Churchill said something during a war, about your behavior in 1939     (as I remember)

Dowding:
1st. read some publications about WW2, not only UK ones.
2nd. I had pleasure to meet one of english pilots fighting in BoB and he said that the "Foreigners saved Your bellybutton that day"

Not only a Poles but many other countries was flighting for you!!! so or me people like U are ................. (U can answer yourself)

<S> to all of U !

Asmodan
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
 



[This message has been edited by Asmodan PL (edited 11-02-2000).]

Offline Asmodan PL

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« Reply #36 on: November 02, 2000, 03:17:00 PM »
One more thing I dont know for sure but UK didnt pay USA for there support


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Asmodan
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
   

[This message has been edited by Asmodan PL (edited 11-02-2000).]

[This message has been edited by Asmodan PL (edited 11-02-2000).]

bike killa

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« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2000, 03:28:00 PM »
.......but remember that Britain and France wanted to avoid war at any cost, even if that meant sacrificing allies.....
yeah. that's what i'm talking about   both of my grandfathers was fighting at WW2. one with Soviets ( captured but alived, died 12 years ago ) second with Germans ( captured, alived too, retired Colonel now ). as i know they expected some help from their Ally at that hard days. can i say that they were sacrified?   that's why i think that it was unfair. a lot of peoples was believing that your country 'll help us, but when we were dying here our allies...........ehhh
nothing personal of course i hope you know it  
<S>

Offline fd ski

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« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2000, 04:10:00 PM »
Dowding - try to get this book.
"The Forgotten Few" by Adam Zamoyski

Might shed some light.

As for paying for the equipment that polish services used - it did happend. Every uniform and bullet was paid for from the polish government reserves abroad. They prefered to hand it to london then allow commies to claim it.
That i have no problem with.

There is just one thing that really saddens me. After the war there was no room for the Poles in england... they were no longer needed. Up till late 1947 they were activelly encouraged by an official government ( and by population well after that ) to "go home". Some did...
( from the book mentioned above. Page 212 )
"Many were less fortunate. Wladysklaw Sliwinski was shot, and his English wife Wyra was thrown into jail. Either other pilots were shot wiht him. Zygmunt Spkolowski, a navigator, was given a job in the Polish Air Force pilots' training school, but he was arrested at the same time as Skalski. He was shot in 1953, along with thirty others."

All those men were enougraged by UK government (which was quite aware of the Katyn and other of the Stalin's little places  ) and population - to return to poland. This is what they survived the war for.

Whole thing is a moot point.

As for Europian union - face up to the facts lads - there is no way that UK or any other country on the planet by itself can stand up and negotiate with USA as equal.
Europian Union can. That's why it's created. UK by itself is powerless... Denmark is powerless.. Poland is powerless...  as someone once said.. "united we stand, divided we fall"


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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2000, 06:20:00 PM »
 
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Not only a Poles but many other countries was flighting for you!!! so or me people like U are ................. (U can answer yourself)...

Go on Asmodan, finish the sentence, I'm sure you want to.

Can someone, particularly Asmodan, please point out a part of any of my posts that denied that Poles (or other foreigners) fought for Britain? Or that I believed Polish assistance wasn't welcome (or needed)? Because I must be blind, stupid and ignorant going by what you guys have posted.  

I do know my WW2 history, and to say the BoB was won solely by foreign pilots is simply untrue. They helped and contributed, and maybe without them the outcome would have been different, but what would the outcome have been if you removed all the British pilots (i.e. the majority)? Poland, Britain, France and the res of Europe would be plunged into a dark-age that might never have ended.

As for post-war British foreign policy, this was largely driven by intense paranoia viz the USSR. Maybe it wasn't right, but you show me a country with a blemish free record of international relations and I'll show you a country that doesn't actually exist.

I'll ask the same question I've asked in previous posts - how could Britain realistically hope to stop the Germans marching through Poland in 1939. Tell me how the British Army was supposed to transfer men, tanks and munitions in just a few months AND fight a victorious campaign that would rout the Germans and avoid a global conflict. Also tell me how any democratically elected government could get the British people (who are still so very anti-war and could not tolerate any action that would be seen as openly provocative to the Germans) to agree to deploying troops along Poland's border with Germany?

Gentlemen, your use of hindsight is exemplary. But Chamberlain et al didn't have that; all they had was the public opinion that war was to be avoided at any cost. It gave them very, very little room for manoever.

Fd-ski - I agree with you about the UK's involvement in the EU. But it has to be right for ALL countries. To build a community on anything less would be to condemn future generations to great instability, the exact opposite of what the EU is about. Perhaps war would be the outcome. For this reason the decision to enter into a European Common Currency has to be a careful one; there will be no going back.

[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 11-02-2000).]
War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Asmodan PL

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« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2000, 06:41:00 PM »
Sorry dowding     but 1st time I was reading this Topic I was weary upset probably it was why I attack U    

the most incredible thing is that U probably never was in East Europe in countries like Poland/Czechs/Slovakia
But U Know what to think about that countries    

that's really sad    

sorry for attacking U one more     <S>

BTW: as a pilots U was not so great Best pilot in BOB was Czech    flying with polish squadron 303     (Frantisek Jozef)

and answer me for one question what was the best squadron ???

One more thing West border of Germany was left without almost any forces (1st, September 1939r.) army of 3000 would go straight to Berlin !!!!

(that's from a History book that I bought in RAF museum)


[This message has been edited by Asmodan PL (edited 11-02-2000).]

bike killa

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« Reply #41 on: November 02, 2000, 06:47:00 PM »
i found it on UK website:
Following the invasion of Poland by Germany and the Soviet Union in September 1939 the Polish government and forces evacuated to Romania, and on into France where they reformed.

After the fall of France the Polish government was established in London and Polish armed forces came under the overall allied command.

During the Battle of Britain in 1940 1 in 8 of allied pilots was Polish, and the highest scoring allied fighter pilot flew with 303 Squadron of the Polish Air Force.

It is said that the Battle of Britain was won by a narrow margin, and the contribution of the already combat experienced Polish pilots was decisive.

i hope this likn 'll be working for you:
 http://www.aquila.btinternet.co.uk/lincs/polishaf/paf.htm

p.s. i don't blame YOU for anything  

Offline fd ski

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« Reply #42 on: November 02, 2000, 10:13:00 PM »
Dowding - no amocity left here  

Basically what happneded is, your statement about "bringing something beneficial into the union" kinda pissed my fellow squadron/country mates - and i don't blame them.

It seems that Poland has an opinion of an "back assed" country in Europe.. "second class europians" one might say.
Is there a reason for that ? Sure. We're way behind and got long way to go. But, is it entirely our own fault ?

Freedom of Poland was a price that UK and USA was willing to pay for support of USSR against Hitler. We got screwed for 50 years - with no other fault of ours then geography.

Many brave man died to save Korea and South Vietnam from evils of communism.. yet nobody saved poles... who wanted to be saved more then other two coutries mentioned combined  

getting back to the topic - lot of poles feel that they earned their entry into EU - the union of developed countries - by being a "beating boy" of europe for long long time. It was Poland where the revolution against communism started. Would the wall come down without "Solidairy" movement ?

Poland won't get rich overnight. Polish people in general are not very good with money ( i know i'm not   ) We tend to be too nice and naive to be good bussinessmen... just read some Polish history.

What can Poland contribute to the Union ?
Hell... we ain't got toejam. But we're trying to make up for the time we lost. We have great educated youth, excellent researchers and tradition of hard work and pride. If you're looking for Poland to bring the wealth to the equation - sorry, can't do.

Please forgive my countrymen if their posts offended you. Their english doesn't do them justice. If their words seemed harsh, i truly believe its the language barrier.


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Bartlomiej Rajewski
aka. Wing Commander fd-ski
Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
303 (Polish) Squadron "Kosciuszko" RAF
308 (Polish) Squadron "City of Cracow" RAF
315 (Polish) Squadron "City of Deblin" RAF

Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters

bike killa

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« Reply #43 on: November 02, 2000, 11:42:00 PM »
dowding, please contact me at bikekilla@poczta.onet.pl
i'm sure we can get some info together and try to learn some things from each other  
i hope i didn't offended you in my posts, was trying to put it in words as good as i can  

Offline StSanta

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« Reply #44 on: November 03, 2000, 05:03:00 AM »
Hm, am I the only one who is astonished to see how far Poland has come since the collapse of the Soviet Union?

I remember back in high school, there was an exchange program where some from our school went to Poland for a month, and some Polacks came to Sweden for a month.

Back then, they said that Poland was quite poor, and that living conditions weren't very good.

Now, it's much better, and getting better each day. I think that give Poland another 10-20 years, and it'll be up there with the rest with regards to material wealth.

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StSanta
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