Author Topic: A quick survey on Patriotism (Read 1511 times)

Neubob · « **Reply #15 on:** June 26, 2006, 08:59:27 PM »

Well, though I don't see a whole lot of talk of forcefully breaking down the current system and building a new one in its place, I do hear quite a bit about how we must show support for this and that, or else we're liberal panzies who don't deserve to breath the same air as 'true Americans'.

The problem is that these same people take support for our troops, support for our government, support for the symbols and supposed ideologies of our nation and make it one and the same. You disagree with Bush, must mean you're against our troops, must mean you're against the flag and American way, your hearts beats for the insurgents and the terror cells, so go ahead and run to Canada, or join the ranks of the Taliban, or whatever.

It strikes me that anyone thinking this way would have felt right at home saying 'I was just following orders', during a time when that line was used to justify the deliberate mass execution of civilian prisoners. Because, after all, if the word of the leader is tantamount to the word of god, and just as important a symbol as the flag, or the Consititution, or apple-filled pastry, then we could justify anything, so long as it emerged from the mouth of a single man. Anyone speaking out against these words, conversely, are branded as universal panzies, commies and traitors, humiliated, and inevitably, grouped right alongside the enemy.

Hangtime · « **Reply #16 on:** June 26, 2006, 09:08:16 PM »

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Originally posted by dmf
Are you saying that maybe its time to start over?

Past Time.

maybe too late.

Elfie · « **Reply #17 on:** June 26, 2006, 09:39:24 PM »

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Originally posted by dmf
I don't know if I'm considered a patriiot or not, I believe in the constitution. I believe that we are one people under god. I believe we should be indivisible. I believe in freedom. I believe it isn't free. I honor our veterans, I stand up and put my hand over my heart for the National Anthum. I get mad when people burn the flag saying bad things about this country. I believe that marriage should be between a man and a woman.

I think dmf summed up pretty well how I feel as a patriot. I dont feel any allegiance to any particular administration. I DO feel allegiance to our constitution though.

*edit* dmf, no offense intended by my edit of your quote. I do believe in God, so I edited out the *or not* part.

Saintaw · « **Reply #18 on:** June 26, 2006, 09:51:34 PM »

I couldn't care less about a piece of cloth. I live in different countries than "mine" most of the time, pay my taxes where I live.... if I no longer like it, I move.

Sandman · « **Reply #19 on:** June 26, 2006, 09:57:32 PM »

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Originally posted by Hangtime
Past Time.

maybe too late.

If not, it's certainly getting closer..

Kurt · « **Reply #20 on:** June 26, 2006, 10:20:02 PM »

Simply put, America was founded by people who were tired of a poorly run and corupt government.

To be against change when change is necessary is fundamentally opposite of that one original intent. Deciding when it is necessary is the tricky bit.

Today, just like then however, there are a lot of people who don't think its bad enough to make a scene. We will make it to the next election, and then we can vote as we see fit. Hopefully we will pay attention and not let the media make the decision for us.

The current situation is bad, and it is my personal opinion (and I'm not going to ram it down anyone's throat) that the current administration is corrupt, misguided and headed the wrong way.

I believe the decision to go to war in Iraq was a poor decision, but I don't think it was wrong... I just think it was poorly planned. And the planning at the government level hasn't improved much over time.

I support and admire the strength and bravery of our men and women fighting overseas, and I pray for them. I do not want them suddenly and foolishly brought home leaving a nation to collapse... I just want to see an intelligent plan to get them home as soon as possible and put this whole mess behind us.

We have a responsibility morally and legally as the occupying force, to support and defend the New Iraq until it is able to defend itself. I know our guys can do the job... And I hope everyone's sons, daughters, brothers, sisters, fathers and mothers are home where they belong as soon as possible.

Coming back to the original question... What is patriotism... Its a little of both... Sometimes you survive the bad government so that better things can follow. And sometimes you take it down as was done in the revolution. But I stand behind America and the people who make it what it is - Even during the times I can not stand behind the President.

America is a country. It is not an administration.

Mini D · « **Reply #21 on:** June 26, 2006, 10:26:54 PM »

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Originally posted by Kurt
Simply put, America was founded by people who were tired of a poorly run and corupt government.

Odd. I thought they were tired of taxation without representation. The very idea of being a colony did not sit well.

But go with the corupt government thing... it works better for your argument.

Neubob · « **Reply #22 on:** June 26, 2006, 10:41:50 PM »

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Originally posted by Mini D
Odd. I thought they were tired of taxation without representation. The very idea of being a colony did not sit well.

But go with the corupt government thing... it works better for your argument.

Isn't taxation without representation a bit on the unfair side, though? Or the fact that his majesty's troops could up and commandeer any civilian domecile when they got tired of marching around?

Mini D · « **Reply #23 on:** June 26, 2006, 10:52:06 PM »

Yes. Your point? Coruption was not the point. This was all perfectly legal... dare I say "entitled". The people had absolutely no say in it.

To compare that situation with the current government is laughable. To pretend the people with the "impeach bush" bumper stickers on their cars even remotely compare to the founding fathers is equally laughable.

Today, people seem to be creating a crisis at all costs. I get up, go to work, come home, do yardwork, **** around on the computer, drive my car anywhere I want to and pretty much do as I please. Virtually anyone else in America is entitled to those same opportunities.

The cry of government for more regulations mates up quite nicely with the cry of "those against government" for any kind of rebellion because of how out of hand society is today.

I just don't get it. I must not be patriotic because I think the government is a bunch of morons and believe anyone out to overthrow them would be even worse.

Kurt · « **Reply #24 on:** June 26, 2006, 11:17:59 PM »

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Originally posted by Mini D
Yes. Your point? Coruption was not the point. This was all perfectly legal... dare I say "entitled". The people had absolutely no say in it.

The fact that the government made it legal does not mean that it wasn't corrupt. You're missing the point by miles. Saddam made lots of things legal for himself in Iraq, but I don't think you'll argue that he was of stout moral fiber? Or will you?

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To pretend the people with the "impeach bush" bumper stickers on their cars even remotely compare to the founding fathers is equally laughable.

I'd didn't say any such thing, and I don't believe anything of the sort... You made that up for your troll.

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Today, people seem to be creating a crisis at all costs. I get up, go to work, come home, do yardwork, **** around on the computer, drive my car anywhere I want to and pretty much do as I please. Virtually anyone else in America is entitled to those same opportunities.

The cry of government for more regulations mates up quite nicely with the cry of "those against government" for any kind of rebellion because of how out of hand society is today.

I agree with you on this point and with every bit of enthusiam. I'm a very happy American I feel unthreatened by anything and I make a good solid paycheck and own many nice things.

I also agree that the uneducated are nervous about nothing and I think the media feeds on it... This was the basis of my remark about not letting the media elect the next president.

Just because a few whackos live in a rock and learned how to crash airplanes doesn't make me scared. They are a poor pathetic troop of miscreants. Precisely ONE TIME they made a successful attack within the United States. Six years later CNN still keeps everyone paranoid and frankly I believe GW tries to capitalize on that fear.

In an age where any teenager can make a DVD quality movie on a $400 computer these guys still only make raspy audio tapes where you can barely hear them... They are no serious threat to the American way of life... They are only thugs. We have worse people in our own citys and we let them wander free.

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I just don't get it. I must not be patriotic because I think the government is a bunch of morons and believe anyone out to overthrow them would be even worse.

Currently I agree...(except that I DO think there are some high level morons in the government - the President himself can only form an understandable sentence about 60% of the time.) The point was that a government CAN be corrupt enough to require that action. The current situation is not like that... If you take a moment to actually read the post, you would have picked up on this subtle point made in the first 3 paragraphs.

Kurt · « **Reply #25 on:** June 26, 2006, 11:23:46 PM »

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Originally posted by Mini D
Odd. I thought they were tired of taxation without representation. The very idea of being a colony did not sit well.

But go with the corupt government thing... it works better for your argument.

Taking a persons money, calling it taxes and shipping it off to the King who then does nothing to support the colony, gives them no voice in the government and only farms it for profit is corrupt abuse of power. That is taxation without representation. Learn the meaning of the words instead of memorizing the text so that you can pass the test.

If you can't see that, then I'm afraid there is no point in trying to convince you...

Holden McGroin · « **Reply #26 on:** June 26, 2006, 11:30:01 PM »

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Originally posted by Kurt
Taking a persons money, calling it taxes and shipping it off to the King who then does nothing to support the colony*1, gives them no voice in the government and only farms it for profit is corrupt abuse of power. That is taxation without representation. Learn the meaning of the words instead of memorizing the text so that you can pass the test.

If you can't see that, then I'm afraid there is no point in trying to convince you...

*1 The taxes levied on the British Colonies in North America was largely to pay for the costs of the French and Indian War. So the King had already done something for the colonies, he just did not sell it well and did not give voice to the Americans.

Kurt · « **Reply #27 on:** June 26, 2006, 11:35:03 PM »

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Originally posted by Holden McGroin
*1 The taxes levied on the British Colonies in North America was largely to pay for the costs of the French and Indian War. So the King had already done something for the colonies, he just did not sell it well and did not give voice to the Americans.

There are two sides to every story... I'm certain that in England, they are taught that we were unruly colonists and we were the bad guys... And I'm certain that just like every where else in life, the truth is in the middle somewhere.

I'm not going to debate the cause of the revolution... The point is that the people (many, but not all of them) decided it was bad enough to rise up, and they did... It formed a new nation.

StarOfAfrica2 · « **Reply #28 on:** June 26, 2006, 11:48:46 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Kurt
Taking a persons money, calling it taxes and shipping it off to the King who then does nothing to support the colony, gives them no voice in the government and only farms it for profit is corrupt abuse of power. That is taxation without representation. Learn the meaning of the words instead of memorizing the text so that you can pass the test.

If you can't see that, then I'm afraid there is no point in trying to convince you...

Whoa whoa whoa. Back up there tiger, and catch your breath. You keep straining against your leash like that, you'll choke yourself to death.

Saying we had no representative in England's govt. just isnt true. Also, England had every right at the time to collect taxes, and the American colonies had agreed to pay taxes as loyal English citizens.

What we objected to were taxes that were levied ONLY on colonists, instead of all Englishmen equally. The colonies also felt they did not have ADEQUATE representation for their numbers, but we DID have representation.

Also saying the King did nothing to support the colonies is a bit of a stretch, when the thing the extra taxes were to pay for was the French and Indian war expenditures, a war which was fought to protect the colonies, and which nearly bankrupted England. As a matter of fact, the reason the new taxes were passed in spite of arguments against them, was because of a pervading idea that the American colonies did not pay their way as part of the British Empire. We were actually seen as rather spoiled. Boy we proved em wrong there didnt we?

I'm as patriotic as the next man and I love my country. I think the Constitution is one of the greatest documents ever written. But I acknowledge that the men who led our country to freedom from England werent perfect either, and were politicians as much as they were patriots. That said, I'm certainly glad they won and not the other way round.

Dont go telling other people off when you havent bothered to study the history yourself. And dont just accept what was in your 6th grade history book as the sum total of the experience.

cav58d · « **Reply #29 on:** June 26, 2006, 11:59:12 PM »

"There are too many people who imagine that there is something sophisticated about always believing the best of those who hate your country, and the worst of those who defend it"... This quote came to mind after reading a couple threads...