A quick survey on Patriotism

[Kurt]

Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
Whoa whoa whoa.  Back up there tiger, and catch your breath.  You keep straining against your leash like that, you'll choke yourself to death.  

Are you guys just looking for a stupid argument, or are you answering the original post?

I never made any claim to be a history professor...

Right after my initial post the first remark disregards everything meaningful that was said and picks one little quip rather than arguing the more valid intents of that post.

My post was about being able to disagree with your government and still supporting your country.  Thats all.  Nothing more.  

Freakin bulldogs.  I have no interest to debate the finer points of the American Revolution... That was never my intent.

Since there seems to be a belief that I want to debate history with you in unending detail, let me instead summarize the point about the revolution in bold so that you're not confused what I'm getting at...

the colonists perceived they were getting jerked around and they rose up against it... Right or wrong.  They made a new nation.

Ok?  Get it now?  They felt jacked over, they got tired of it.  The simple version... Not the version where anyone is trying to prove how smart they are or how many names and dates they can quote.

I'm not arguing who did what, why, on what day...  I'm simply saying that this DID happen.. There is a precident.  Change IS the American way.  The ability to bring change via the democratic system is our legacy..  We make bad changes... we make good changes... In the end, we make America out of that.

very simple...

[Hangtime]

"Loyalty to petrified opinions never yet broke a chain or freed a human soul in this world--and never will."

Mark Twain (1835-1910)

[StarOfAfrica2]

Umm, Kurt, you were the one who felt your interpretation of History was being trampled on and got all nasty with someone.  We reacted to your TONE, not your words.  Does this ring a bell for you?

Learn the meaning of the words instead of memorizing the text so that you can pass the test.

Dont start throwing your weight around if you dont like having your arguments refuted.

[Holden McGroin]

The original draft of Declaration did not read,

"But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security..."

The original draft said, "When jacked around long enough, peeps get pissed, and we best be gettin' to kickin' some regal ass..."  Later the text reads, "We gonna make our own country and the king can go f--- off"

The edits of Franklin and Adams helped massage the prose to what we prize today.

oh yeah,  WTG Beavers!

[Neubob]

I'm not sure, but it seems to me that the prospect of successfully revolting against Washington is sort of an out-of-touch idea today. Hell, the South tried it, and with a whole army, didn't get the job done... What is America to do then, to heed the words of the Declaration? Are we supposed to get our dis-enfrachised tulips up and, with post-ban Aks and Ar-15s in hand, go up against the National Guard? Is that what Franklin and his cronies suggested? Isn't that one of the reasons we have to thank for the second ammendment?

Seems that the only way to revolt is to do so by pooling public opinion. Thankfully, we still live in a place where it's legal to call the president an *******. Enough people doing that, coupled with some well-placed ad campaigns and perhaps in idiotically skewed propaganda film by a rich yet poorly-attired fat man, will lead to, well, a second term for said *******, but, after that term's over, we're in business...

Bush administration meet.... Uh....

Hillary!!!

For Christ sake. Makes me wanna choke on my own puke sometimes.

[beet1e]

What cpxxx said. ^ Especially "Unrelenting support of a government would give it a licence to do whatever it liked." This is what happened in Britain from 1997-2005 in Tony Blair's first two administrations. One needs to remember that there is a difference between the Government and the State in any democracy, something Blair and co. seemed to have forgotten in those years, but they're getting plenty of reminders now.

Kurt - I think you are partly right - quoting from memory (no time to look it up just now), there were the Stamp Acts - forms which had to be filled in by American officials, who had to use the very expensive special paper supplied by the British. So yes, the Americans were being ripped off by Britain.

Originally posted by Kurt
I'm certain that in England, they are taught that we were unruly colonists and we were the bad guys...

This, however, is bollocks. Was it a troll? I passed History O-Level in 1971, and part of the course covered the American Revolution, Boston Tea Party etc. I think most of us found it to be an amusing story! Something about the revolutionaries dressing up as tea traders and chucking the tea into Boston Harbor. That was then and this is now! And Britain and America have been joined at the hip since WW2 and probably long before.

Which brings me on to why I'm pressed for time. I have been invited to lunch in London, by a visiting American friend, who now lives in Bloomington, Indiana. WTF is that?  So TP till later on this afternoon.

[Mini D]

Here's the catch: Voting democrat is not being a rebel. Quit labeling yourself as such.

The two parties are so stagnent that it's laughable. But I don't see the voters doing much about that. The change needs to come from within government. You're not going to get rid of the people supporting their own state, nor buisnesses in their own state. That's why they're called representatives. It just seems there are some things that can be done to curtail election costs and hold politicians to their word.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: I wish more of the politicians were like Arnold. He speaks his mind and makes a concerted effort to be true to his word. He seemingly makes decisions that are for the betterment of his state that aren't based on pandering, corperate greed nor partisan politics.

Now I look at how he was treated during the elections. I look at the "groping" charges levied against him by people so politically corrupt that anything that put a chink in his armor was considered a good thing. The voters ended up winning that one in the end, but they were mocked relentlessly by virtually everyone around them because they chose the better governer.

I guess in that regards, the voters need to take a serious reality check too. Once again, reading this BBS highlights that. There is no goverment that opperates the way most people here portray it. It's neither noble nor absolutely corrupt. Good things happen and bad things happen. The more we make nothing issues into serious issues the more fuel we throw on the flame. Our "rebellion" against one party is support for the other. At least, it sure seems that way with 90% of what I see posted here and 100% of what you (neubob) post.

[lazs2]

The catch is that a true patriot is an individualist... he believes that man has inalienable rights and that government is only there to protect those rights.

As such... the current government is much better than the klinton one say to someone like me but... I have enemies in both parties...  

What my choices are is staying with the rupublicans and walking toward socialism and the loss of individualism or voting for democrats and running full speed toward it.

If I were to take up arms I would probly wait till the democrats were in power because they are so much more abhorent and they are the most likely to try to disarm me in the first place.   That is probly what it will take to get a violent revolution in this country.

But.... for now and for a peaceful solution I would suggest that if you love freedom and hate tyranny and corruption....

That we all simply vote down every new tax that comes up for us to vote on and that we vote down any new ban or law or restriction on anything.

If you don't..... you are allowing, no.... you are gleefuly encouraging the growth of government and the loss of your individual rights.

The enemy is big government and socialism.  No patriot to himself and man would allow them to flourish.

lazs

[FiLtH]

The trouble is we are too far into whatever this monster is we've created since after WW2. If a rebellion ever started it would be the ruination of this country, not the cure.  

      That said I dont think we have to worry about a rebellion anytime soon. Look at what the left is largely made up of. Not really the stuff of Paul Revere and Betsy Ross. I think high schools should have a course for kids, thats called "My Expanding Mind, and Why I will soon think (at my young age) I have the answer that will make everything better".

     As long as people are polled for what changes they would make, and the answer is "legallize pot", I dont think we have to worry much.

[Kurt]

Originally posted by Mini D
Here's the catch: Voting democrat is not being a rebel. Quit labeling yourself as such.

I didn't label myself anything.  Seems maybe you did?

My point last night remains the same today...  We have the power to make change at the voting booth.  And we do.

I do not think a rebellion is necessary or even that it would work.  I simply said that in sufficiently bad times, people do rebel against their government.

[Kurt]

Originally posted by lazs2
The catch is that a true patriot is an individualist... he believes that man has inalienable rights and that government is only there to protect those rights.

As such... the current government is much better than the klinton one say to someone like me but... I have enemies in both parties...  

What my choices are is staying with the rupublicans and walking toward socialism and the loss of individualism or voting for democrats and running full speed toward it.

If I were to take up arms I would probly wait till the democrats were in power because they are so much more abhorent and they are the most likely to try to disarm me in the first place.   That is probly what it will take to get a violent revolution in this country.

But.... for now and for a peaceful solution I would suggest that if you love freedom and hate tyranny and corruption....

That we all simply vote down every new tax that comes up for us to vote on and that we vote down any new ban or law or restriction on anything.

If you don't..... you are allowing, no.... you are gleefuly encouraging the growth of government and the loss of your individual rights.

The enemy is big government and socialism.  No patriot to himself and man would allow them to flourish.

lazs

An excellent post Laz..  Hit every nail right on the head.

[Thud]

Personally I think that the US is in as much risk of getting a socialist government as of getting trampled by a continent-sized oppossum bred out of a salt-water croc and a grey bunny from a certain region within Belorussia.

Seriously though, if one observes the political tendencies in the Western world a cyclic movement becomes apparent. Public sympathy for (and therewith power) respectively 'left' and 'right' parties comes and fades, usually retraceable to the prevailing economic climate during the reign of a given political orientation.

I may be less inititiated into the finer details of US (domestic) politics than many of you but I'm fairly sure the political views of both the general public and respective US governments will remain virtually the same before and after any given prolonged periods.
In between it will fluctuate but in the end nothing will change.

[lazs2]

filth... not sure I understand what you are saying...  The left will not rebel because they are getting what they want not because they are such wimps.  

We are going more and more toward socialism (communism for those who can't spell) and the loss of individualism....

Sure... they make a lot of noise when there is a glitch or slowdown in the slide toward socialism but... in the end they know that they control enough.... media... schools etc to insure that we keep sliding toward government control of everything.

anyone want to put their money where their mouth is?   Vote down every new tax and every new law... no matter how little it affects you or "get's" the other guy that you don't like or.... no matter how much you think that putting the burden on someone else will save you...

Take helmet and seatbelt laws.... You wanted em cause they were gonna save you money on insurance at the expense of people you didn't care about anyway....

So tell me..... How much did your rates go down?  How much better is your life?

lazs

[Kurt]

I never knew that Laz and I thought so similarly on the this topic.

I actually did start voting down anything that required additional tax money.  I started this 3 elections ago..

Every school bond (in california hardly a year goes by without a school bond issue... We have authorized billions that they have managed to lose... I'm not giving them any more until they justify the money already lost...)

Anyhow, every school bond, every feel good grant, etc... Every indian gaming initiative, NO.  If it costs money (name a law that doesn't) I'm not voting for anything that lightens my wallet so someone can be irresponsible.

No on every ballot proposition... We wouldn't need propositions if we would vote out those idiots in the state capitol who keep writing bad laws.  Propositions are just band-aids for bad law, get rid of the inept law makers and you don't need the propositions.

And MOST ESPECIALLY.. NO on any additional amendments to the consitution unless they increase freedom rather than restrict it further.  Don't waste my tax money by trying to legislate morality.  In America everyone has the right to their own morality (or lack thereof) within the confines of the exisiting law.

Glad to see someone else with the same policy

[RedTop]

Geesh...I really like Mini D's and Lazs take.  Thanks D & Lazs