Sears Tower Terror Threat Averted!!

[Maverick]

Originally posted by Shamus
Nope, I am sure we have access to the same info, you think this was high quality police work?.

I'm sure that al-Quaeda hopes that this is an example our hard core investigative technique.

Stings are the lazy way out, wont catch the smart ones and I would think you would know that.

shamus

First off I really had no opinion as to the quality of the police work. There has been too little information released to make any kind of real assessment of the suspects. I don't recall seeing any IQ scores posted on them.

I don't really give a damn what al queda thinks about it one way or the other. If they think this is the top of the line, fine. Underestimating us as the oposition works in our favor.

Stings catch the lazy, the bright, the stupid and the average. What motivates folks like this is to take the easy way, the greedy way. If they can be caught like this it's just hunky dory with me. I don't require terrorists or criminals to be smart, obviously you do. It doesn't take anyone real smart to blow up a building or start shooting in a crowded place. One might say that that kind of behavior is rather stupid.

In a few operations I have been in some rather bright folks were caught in a sting. I don't know the low lifes that were arrested here and I won't presume they were smart or stupid. I'm just happy that they are off of the street given their motivation and what the wanted to do.

[Hangtime]

all worthy sentiments. But dontcha think the Feds are spinning this?

you see anything here that required much more than a local force round up?

anything worthy of a national press briefing?

I don't think I've over-simplified the credibility of the 'threat'.. after all; one of them had actually been to Chicago once. He even seemed to know where the Sears Tower was.

I guess I'm guilty too... since a post in the O'Club on the subject is the local equivelent of a National Press Breifing by the Attorney General of the United States.

[Eagler]

Originally posted by Shamus
Are you saying the government set up McVeigh like they did these morons and just kinda missed the arrest?, I know some think that, I always found it a bit unbelievable..you surprise me.

shamus

nope, I never said that nor had I even heard of it before
just saying it doesn't take a rocket scientist to blow something or one's self up

[Shuckins]

Oklahoma City might have avoided a tragedy if some of those who knew McVeigh had paid more than just passing attention to his delusional and murderous rants.

But nobody did.

Who knows what this other group of retards might have ultimately been capable of if they had managed to make the right connections for getting arms and explosives.

Where there's a will, there's a way.  It's a mistake to underestimate their potential.

[storch]

eagleDNY, that's why I'm of a torn opinion on the matter, as are most of us I would suspect.

here's the rub. throughout human history far more of humanity has died at hands of our governments than by any other means.  this is not conjecture but a documented fact.  look back to the moron stalin and what he did to an estimated 30million of his own people. even our own gov't is guilty of some pretty horrendous stuff.  there is evidence of involuntary sterilization of blacks and puertoricans.  what do you think abortion is truly about?  it's the nature of the beast and if we, as a people do not take measures to contain it through legislation then at some point our progeny will find themselves in a situation of having to revolt.  coupled with the complete revisionist crap students are fed regarding our proud heritage in another generation only but a few may comprehend the principals this republic was founded upon.  it is now the obligation of my generation to pass on, intact those freedoms which were handed to us.  If it means that I and my children must die at the hands of a terrorist so be it.  better than to lose the freedoms and liberties that make life worth living.  what we enjoy today was purchased with blood, the blood of people who also had lives and loved ones.  it is our responsibility to be ever vigilant and to be involved in the political process no matter how frustrating it is.  the alternative is just not acceptable.  don't just post stuff here email you senators and district rep.  do so often.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Anyone expecting the local police forces to catch terrorists and such is bound to be terribly disappointed. Local forces, meaning township, city, county, and metropolitan forces, are almost without exception completely unsuited for seeking out the sort of people who would conspire to and succeed in terrorist activity. They have neither the staff, the funding, the training, nor the time. They do well to keep traffic under control, and deal with "normal" criminal activity. They just don't. I'm no fan of the Federal government by any stretch, but in order to deal with real terrorism, be it homegrown or imported, you're going to have to have the feds. Take it from a formal local law enforcement officer, less than 1% of the local agencies have a prayer, anything they hit on will be pure luck and chance. Hell, a lot of state agencies would have trouble. Even when you DO have time and resources to devote to a task like that, you still need to get lucky and get a break, regardless of how good and how smart you are.

And yes, you'll also end up busting idiots and morons who have no idea what they are doing in the process of actually bagging terrorists and stopping their plans. Same thing happens with every other law enforcement task outside of traffic. Working on a drug task force? You'll no doubt bust at least a couple crews of total incompetent fools and wannabes making illfated attempts to move a bag of pot on your way to catching some one with five bales of pot hidden behind an access panel in a tractor trailer rig.

You follow every lead, until it runs out or results in an arrest, or a dead end. You NEVER know how adept, capable, intent, willing, or successful someone really is until it is all over. When it comes to the possibility of someone committing a terrorist act, in this day and age, you can't just blow it off because they LOOK like total morons. I ran across plenty of people looked for all the world like they couldn't tie their shoes or wipe their bellybutton without a set of instructions and some one there to read them. But they were pretty successful as criminals, despite the fact that they weren't Mensa candidates.

[Eagler]

so storch you'd rather of had your family killed by these losers say at a mall than to have whatever imagined "freedoms" you feel were violated with their arrests?

not me buddy ... best look at a calendar, it ain't 1775 anymore..

you are slipping into the paraniod group, you best go run off and watch for those black copters now ..

[lazs2]

any medium smart crook will be able to kill a lot of people if he doesn't mind getting caught or doesn't really think that part through...  Even a really stupid one can kill people if he is suicidal.

Even the FBI and ATF can catch a crook if someone hand feeds em the perps.   We are paying a lot of money for police that basicaly sit and wait for us to snitch each other off.   Even then... they often get the wrong address even when they write it down.   They mostly cause more harm than good.

Uniformed police are a deterent when they are seen.   They also generate some revenue by traffic enforcement.

We have far too many police forces in this country.   They don't offer us security in any way and often... they destroy liberty.

lazs

[Edbert1]

Originally posted by Eagler
so storch you'd rather of had your family killed by these losers say at a mall than to have whatever imagined "freedoms" you feel were violated with their arrests?

You can call me paranoid if you want to write me off, that's fine with me. But in all honesty I beleive that our government's willingness to ignore the consitution is a much greater threat to me, my kids, and our future than AQ could ever dream of being.

[Eagler]

please list these "lost freedoms" and exactly what you can't do today that you could do say in 2000?

[storch]

I do believe the greater good is more important than any one individual's life.  I do believe that liberty is and always will be paid for in blood.  I'm not wholly opposed to the war being executed in afghanistan, iraq and soon to be other places.  I agree that it's better to keep them at bay by attacking them at their homes instead of the them attacking us here.  but at some point you have the obligation to question governmental power grabbing.  don't you think the government may be utilizing this time of national insecurity to further increase it's power over our people?   it is very astute of you to notice that it is indeed 230 years since we openly declared war upon a despotic regime.  a thinking person can't help but wonder what the founders of our republic would opine about the current state of their legacy.  what would  John Adams think of the current state of the republic, how about Thomas Jefferson?  each successive generation has the responsibility to safeguard those freedoms.  it is our generation's time now.  eagler, are you not at least a little concerned with the steady erosion of our civil rights and liberties?  don't worry if you're not you are in the majority. just as during that time not so long ago one third of the population was on the side of oppression another third opted for a "wait and see" stance and would not commit leaving the difficult task for the final third.  you see sir, that the 80/20 rule applies to any difficult task.  this one should be no different.  In answer to your question, yes you can count me among the ones who will challenge any further intrusions into our civil liberties,  I will do so by pressuring my elected representatives repeatedly each and every time a piece of potentially intrusive legislation is brought to my attention.  it is my obligation as a beneficiary of those very same freedoms to do so.  it should be yours as well.

[lazs2]

anyone who has been to an airport lately knows what it is to lose freedom... looks like those old noir films of nazi gestapo at train stations.... a smile is the rarest thing to see in an airport these days.

The book 1984 gave us all nighmares decades ago when we read it.... nowdays....it seems like no big deal....  "click it or ticket" signs on the freeway... gun control... helmet laws... property confiscation...

As for catching these types of guys.... All of us can do a better job than some fbi or atf clown in an office somewhere.   They never catch anyone without our help anyway.

lazs

[Edbert1]

Originally posted by Eagler
please list these "lost freedoms" and exactly what you can't do today that you could do say in 2000?

There is nothing magical about Y2K, in fact most of the dissolution of the bill-of-rights began with Lincoln and accelerated with the unratified 16th ammendment. The great depression, WWII, and cold-war/war-on-poverty/war-on-drugs all saw errosion to a greater degree than the war-on-terror has, IMHO.

See, when we are "at war" with something we tend to ignore the loss of freedom. Sadly we have been "at war" (not my term, the term our government uses) with something for a VERY long time now.

-Note: I support the current offensive military (and pseudo-military) actions against islamofascists in Afghanistan/Iraq and all those other countries that the NYT has not leaked yet. It is the war being waged on the bill-of-rights that I protest, and my protestations have nothing to do with the jokers in the subject of this thread either.

[storch]

it goes beyond a mere inconvenience at an airport.  get pulled over by a law enforcement official who may be having a bad day and see what he can legally do to you.  I have personally been detained at a home depot parking lot by INS looking for illegals even though I presented my DL and VR. and don't look hispanic, my english is flawless etc.  the guy was bored and possibly didn't like my truck.  after of keeping me standing in the hot sun for quite some time I told him I was going to my truck and sit in the A/C he told me no.  I told him to F/off and shoot me and got in the truck. after still more time  he returned my documentation at which time I taunted the crap outta him.  I reported it to INS still no reply though.  I'm minding my business and out of the blue the gestapo wants to see my papers.  you don't see a problem, you ain't looking around.

[lazs2]

The loss of freedom has been gradual.... creeping socialism and big brotherism..

It is only apparent if you have lived through more than a couple of decades and can compare then to now.  

lazs