Author Topic: The Macchis.... Some discrepencies  (Read 2188 times)

Offline Krusty

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The Macchis.... Some discrepencies
« Reply #15 on: July 03, 2006, 03:02:22 PM »
Widewing, while you might consider the P51, P38, etc, all superior, the allies seemed to think that the C205 was superior. For a 1943 aircraft it was one of the best. 109 pilots thought it was better than a 109 (and the extra firepower couldn't hurt, I bet!).

So at the time it was one of the worst planes to go up against.

We even have the first-hand story told by an italian pilot given a 205 (he had been flying 202s and he got the first 205 in his squadron) -- his first sortie he took out 2 bombers and easily killed a P38, then got into a fight where he was serverely outnumbered and he still managed to get away and land safely! He was fine but the plane was written off. His CO was pissed as hell until he dragged him around confirming the 2 bombers and 1 fighter kills.

Offline HoHun

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The Macchis.... Some discrepencies
« Reply #16 on: July 03, 2006, 03:25:41 PM »
Hi Reynolds,

>There was another one before that. Actually, i think the one im talking about (forget what its called) Was created and flown in the late 30s, and hitler said flat out "No." and cancelled the project. It looked somewhat like the Me-163.

Back in those days, it was Udet cancelling projects, not Hitler.

If an early single-engined jet was cancelled, I can only think of the He 178,  and that one was never intended as a combat aircraft anyway. The He 180 designation was hypothetically reserved for a single-engine fighter, but quickly skipped in favour of the twin-engine He 280 which was cancelled because it was overtaken by the Me 262 before it got anywhere near finished status.

>But he DID interfere real bad with the 262,

He made the Luftwaffe use the jets that they received too late in too small numbers in the wrong role for two or three months. That was highly incompetent, but hardly changed anything.

The big thing was metallurgy, and there was nothing Hitler could have done in 1943 to solve that problem.

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline HoHun

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The Macchis.... Some discrepencies
« Reply #17 on: July 03, 2006, 03:40:07 PM »
Hi Widewing,

>Well, the Italians tried a very novel approach to generating huge horsepower. It worked, but offered many challenges.

It basically consisted of building a twin-engined aircraft with two closely coupled engines. It wasn't completely novel, but it was consistently difficult each time it was tried anew. My impression is that success along this route came only with the advent of the propeller turbine.

>By the way, the MC 72's record is still recogized for piston-engined sea planes.

Good point, the record started out as absolute world speed record anyway, and as that it was already beaten by the Heinkel He 100 landplane record flight. The Beriyev did only further limit the record's "scope", but within this scope the record is still valid. I'm pretty confident it's going to remain valid for a long time, too :-)

>You can get or simply read an indepth description of the AS6 V-24 engine and the MC 72 program from the NASA server here.

Wow, great stuff, thanks for the link! :-)

Regards,

Henning (HoHun)

Offline Widewing

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The Macchis.... Some discrepencies
« Reply #18 on: July 03, 2006, 03:48:42 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Widewing, while you might consider the P51, P38, etc, all superior, the allies seemed to think that the C205 was superior.


I'm not aware of any Allied analysis that supports this. Naturally, this begs the question; superior to what?

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline red26

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The Macchis.... Some discrepencies
« Reply #19 on: July 03, 2006, 04:13:36 PM »
Here is a little web page about all the secret wepons hittler was looking at.

http://www.luft46.com/

It shows a bunch of stuff that if they had gotten off the ground with some of the things in here they might have won the war. Well if they had gotten off the ground in the young stages of the war that is. Take a look and let me know what yall think?:aok :O
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Offline Krusty

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The Macchis.... Some discrepencies
« Reply #20 on: July 03, 2006, 04:19:31 PM »
Widewing, from memory the comment was vague. I read something on that order in a book recently, but I'm sitting here flipping through the books I have and I can't find which book had it. Sorry for the lack of details :(

Offline Widewing

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The Macchis.... Some discrepencies
« Reply #21 on: July 03, 2006, 07:53:06 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Krusty
Widewing, from memory the comment was vague. I read something on that order in a book recently, but I'm sitting here flipping through the books I have and I can't find which book had it. Sorry for the lack of details :(


No need to flip thru books, I do recall that some P-38 pilots thought that the C.205/202 was the best Axis fighter(s) they faced over Italy. I suspect that this perspective was enhanced because the Italian pilots were often insanely aggressive and would not quit a fight when the odds were poor.

Don't misunderstand me, I have a high regard for the C.205, but it is a fighter that requires a full understanding of its capabilities. Many of the guys who fly them do silly things, like attempting to turn fight with a Spitfire. Like the P-51, you can push this only so far and then know when it's time to break-off and get clear. This problem has grown with the addition of the Mk.VIII and Mk.XVI, both of which are faster, while climbing and accelerating better than the 205. You cannot simply disengage. There was a time when the 205 could out turn fighters that were faster and out-run fighters that turned better. This isn't the case any longer due to new additions and the revised drag model.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline gatt

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The Macchis.... Some discrepencies
« Reply #22 on: July 04, 2006, 02:15:32 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Widewing
There was a time when the 205 could out turn fighters that were faster and out-run fighters that turned better. This isn't the case any longer due to new additions and the revised drag model.


Really true. Our squadron had to relearn to fight against the new (well flown) Spitfires. Before, you could outrun and disengage at will from early MkIXs. Opposite thing happened with the old Niki's UFO flight model.

Anyway, green-average Spitfire VIII-XVI pilots (90%+ of them) still keep their fighters too slow and low so they are usually preys for average-good 109/205 pilot.

As far as allied pilots memories about italian fighters are concerned it is probably easy to understand why some of them remember those C.205 and G.55 ... after three years of fighting against biplanes, G.50, C.200, Re.2001 and C.202, those few, new, fast and well armed fighters should have been a little nasty surprise.
« Last Edit: July 04, 2006, 02:40:59 AM by gatt »
"And one of the finest aircraft I ever flew was the Macchi C.205. Oh, beautiful. And here you had the perfect combination of italian styling and german engineering .... it really was a delight to fly ... and we did tests on it and were most impressed." - Captain Eric Brown

Offline Gianlupo

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The Macchis.... Some discrepencies
« Reply #23 on: July 05, 2006, 01:12:30 PM »
Back to Krusty's original post, the C.202 wing mounted mgs were introduced in Series VII, while the pylons for underwing stores were introduced in Series IX (the so called C.202CB, "CacciaBombardiere", for Jabo): each pylon could carry a 50, 100 or 160 Kg GP bomb or, alternatively, a 100 or 150 liter drop tanks.

The problem is that these modifications were often retrofitted, so it's hard to say how many C.202 and from which series were able to carry underwing stores. What's certain is that C.202 (and, consequently, C.205, that shares most, if not all, of its airframe with the Folgore) could carry external loads, so I'd like to see them added to the game.

C.205N, Macchi's final configuration for the last fighter competion held by the Regia Aeronautica before the armstice (the one that gave birth to the so called "Serie 5" fighters), never saw production, in any variant. Air Ministry decided to produce a certain number of C.205V, because of the strong similarity with C.202, that allowed a ready production, while Fiat and Reggiane were preparing their production lines for the G.55 and Re.2005, but this latter two were to go in big production, not the Veltro, that was seen as an temporary solution. Gatt sent to HT the G.55 manual, I hope to see it in game, sooner or later, maybe with a CT Italian scenario! :)

As for engines, it's not true that we didn't care about high powered engines. The matter is that Regia Aeronautica decided (with one of the many unforeseeing choices they made) that radial engines were better suited for combat and more reliable than inline engines, ignoring the progresses made in the inline engine production during the 30s; only in 1938, about, they undestood the error.
And the research on inline engines was never dropped, it did go ahead: there are prototypes of many italian planes equipped with Isotta Fraschini Delta engine, but it was never tuned before the armstice and, given the needs of production, it was eventually decided to use the Daimler Benz as power unit, without waiting for the national industry to perfection its own designs.

The true problem was lack of foreseeing and proper leadership in the Air Ministry and Air Force top brass and the status of national industry that Widewing so well framed.
« Last Edit: July 05, 2006, 01:17:38 PM by Gianlupo »
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Offline Krusty

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The Macchis.... Some discrepencies
« Reply #24 on: July 05, 2006, 01:31:38 PM »
One source I've got is a book by David Donald (whoever that is) and it claims that the series 5 introduced bomb racks, but maybe they weren't installed on most planes until the IX? (I dont' know).

I have read in several sources that the N-2 never saw service, but if the N-1 did I would LOVE LOVE LOVE to have it. The same armament of the P38 in a better airframe!! (*ducks from things Ack-Ack is throwing at him*)

Offline Gianlupo

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The Macchis.... Some discrepencies
« Reply #25 on: July 05, 2006, 02:07:07 PM »
Well, Krusty, my sources stated what I typed above. I'm pretty sure the 205N never saw service (it never entered production, to be correct), but if you like that kind of armament, then root for the G.55, as the first exemplars (the pre-production Series 0) had 4 .50 and 1 20mm, and they saw service along side the normal exemplar, fitted with 2 .50 and 3 20mm. ;)
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Offline Krusty

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The Macchis.... Some discrepencies
« Reply #26 on: July 05, 2006, 02:31:42 PM »
I know.. but... it's not a Macchi!!

Offline Gianlupo

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The Macchis.... Some discrepencies
« Reply #27 on: July 05, 2006, 05:39:18 PM »
:lol  Well, very good plane, too! ;)
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Offline red26

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The Macchis.... Some discrepencies
« Reply #28 on: July 07, 2006, 07:26:02 PM »
Ok so all in all what the 205 good for is there any one thing good turner good ZandB bird I cant figure it out:O :O :O :O
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Offline Lusche

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The Macchis.... Some discrepencies
« Reply #29 on: July 07, 2006, 07:31:33 PM »
More Zoom and Boom than turner. Watch your energy! :)
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