Author Topic: Just glad AH isn't a true representation of ...  (Read 1928 times)

Offline 1776

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« Reply #45 on: November 11, 2000, 07:19:00 AM »
   
Quote
Originally posted by leonid:
Wow, you guys really are in the dark.  Okay, how about guaranteed housing for all, guaranteed health care, and a guaranteed pension plan that is viable.  This isn't pipe dreaming either, it's a fact in quite a few other industrialized nations.  So what if it's socialistic???  Who gives a rat's ass?  If it improves the citizenry as a whole, it can only help.

In America, if you make enough money, or are extremely aggressive with your investments (again, need a fair chunk of cash), such an arrangement as housing, health care, and pension are all within easy reach.  But if you don't make enough money, then your choices dwindle rapidly.  Thus, having viable choices in America is directly proportional to how much money you have.  We are certainly free to try and make more money, but in the business world nothing is guaranteed.  This should not be the way to provide for a nation's citizenry.  Every citizen should be guaranteed housing, health care, and pension.  At least in my book.


Sounds Great!!!! I want a mansion with a 3 car garage,  3 limos for my personal use.  The best healthcare money can buy!!!

A pension of $14-$20k/week  

Now why would I work hard and be productive if I know that is at the end of my worklife???  You forgot to factor in human nature!!!!!

Human nature is the reason Socialism has failed, is failing, and will always fail!!


[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 11-11-2000).]

[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 11-11-2000).]

Offline fd ski

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« Reply #46 on: November 11, 2000, 07:26:00 AM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by 1776:
I seem to remember a book called "Animal Farm".

and hearing about it from one of your friends who can read makes you an expert on the subject ?
<g,d,r>

I hate to tell you but Animal Farm is a cruique of communism in its soviet implementation, believe it or not the author was as socialist as you could find...

Next step for you to sound eloqent now is to say that "some animals are more equal then the others". Go ahead... It's ok. But for a long run conversation i suggest you go buy cliffnotes.

 

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Offline Nash

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« Reply #47 on: November 11, 2000, 07:36:00 AM »
rofl  

Offline Dnil

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« Reply #48 on: November 11, 2000, 11:09:00 AM »
downright scarey when communism is defended.  Hell lets have them implant chips so they can insure we only do the correct and honorable thing.  My god, if ya like communism so much head to china.  I cannot believe its being proposed as being viable.

From my cold dead hands.

but hey, go here and read some biased, hehe, facts on gore's history.  http://www.algore-2000.org/
now this communism talk makes sense.

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Offline fd ski

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« Reply #49 on: November 11, 2000, 11:17:00 AM »
Yes Dnil, you got us pegged. We're all out to get you.

To everyone - we've been found out. Plot to destroy Dnil and his princilaps have been put off until 2004  


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Bartlomiej Rajewski
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Northolt Wing
1st Polish Fighter Wing
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Turning 109s and 190s into scrap metal since 1998

Northolt Wing Headquarters

Offline Dowding

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« Reply #50 on: November 11, 2000, 11:19:00 AM »
Excellent points well made, Fd-ski. <S!>

Dnil - go back to your black and white world, or perhaps re-read the posts here. No-one is defending communism as a viable alternative to democracy - they are pointing out the ideals are commendable and that *some* of the concepts might make the world a better place.

Cabby - care to reply to my last post? I'd like to hear what you say - or perhaps you prefer not to defend your opinions when challenged?

 
Quote
Human nature is the reason Socialism has failed, is failing, and will always fail!!

Open your eyes a little 1776. The UK has a moderate socialist government, yet we have the lowest unemployment for 30 years (and more than 18 of those were under a conservative government). We have the fourth largest economy in the world (which isn't bad for a country with 55 million inhabitants). Sure, it isn't perfect, but it hardly fits your image of a a democratic socialist state.

Or perhaps you are mistaking socialism for communism? This seems to be a common mistake with a lot of people on this BB (and maybe in America as a whole?). It seems to me people can't be bothered to look at the facts and admit not everything is as black and white as you might want it to be. Communism and socialism are as different as conservatism is from facism - there are only superficial similarities.

Fd-ski is right about Animal Farm and makes a good point about Soviet communism. Stalin twisted the revolution into a form which suited him, and it remained with the USSR until its end.

I'll say it again, Communism might not work on a grand scale, but that doesn't mean *some* of the ideas developed therein aren't valuable to a democracy.

And then there's Marxism...



[This message has been edited by Dowding (edited 11-11-2000).]
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Offline 1776

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« Reply #51 on: November 11, 2000, 11:43:00 AM »
Please,I am willing to listen to you with open eyes,as you have determined I am totally ignorant,and who knows maybe I am!!.  Now tell me how the healthcare is administered in the UK?  It is social healthcare,isn't it??

I eagerly await your words of wisdom with a worm on my tongue(baited breathe, hehee)

Offline Dnil

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« Reply #52 on: November 11, 2000, 11:48:00 AM »
actually promoting socialism is a threat to me.  

Maybe in your world your government can pick the right job for me but not in mine, at least not without a fight.  I believe in personal responsibilty, not having big brother tell me what my responsibilty is.  

Sure in a perfect world it all sounds rosey, no one fights we have all our needs and wants met, but its not gonna happen, ever.  We are animals, plain and simple.  I know liberals hate hearing that but its true, we hunt, we gather, we make babies.  

One thing is for certain, I will not support unmotivated lazy people, no way no how.  You make your bed, you have to lie in it.  

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Offline Dowding

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« Reply #53 on: November 11, 2000, 11:51:00 AM »
Nice that you ask. Yes, healthcare is administered in the form of the 'National Health Service' (founded 50 years ago or so), which is paid for through income tax. Anyone can use it and it covers major operations as well as minor treatment. Access to emergency care is not dependant on medical insurance of any kind (I've heard that in the States you have to sign forms before you get treatment - true?).

Although it has its weaknesses and its critics (like any system has), I believe it preferable to a completely privatised service.

BTW, I don't profess to being a fountain of knowledge.
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Offline Dowding

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« Reply #54 on: November 11, 2000, 11:57:00 AM »
 
Quote
Maybe in your world your government can pick the right job for me but not in mine, at least not without a fight. I believe in personal responsibilty, not having big brother tell me what my responsibilty is.

Who said anything about governments deciding what job you have? I agree, I don't believe in having a 'big brother' watching over me.

Yet again, you confuse socialism for communism (I'm getting tired of writing that sentence).

 
Quote
actually promoting socialism is a threat to me.

Seems to me you don't want to hear anything that might contradict your blinkered and restrictive view of the world. You talk about individualism yet you want everyone to think the same.

I've got news for you - that ain't going to happen. Not ever.

In fact, 'over my dead body'.
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Offline Dnil

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« Reply #55 on: November 11, 2000, 12:49:00 PM »
actually you do, you assume im the blind and unknowing one. maybe its not me  

help  me understand your point, explain to me your perfect society.

hows is promoting individualism wanting everyone to think my way?  its i do my thing you do yours, but dont step on my way and i wont step on yours.  seems pretty unblinkered to me.


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[This message has been edited by Dnil (edited 11-11-2000).]

Offline 1776

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« Reply #56 on: November 11, 2000, 12:50:00 PM »
Hmmm, seems to me your answer is very short.
How much in taxes do you have to pay??

There is no private healthcare in the UK??

[This message has been edited by 1776 (edited 11-11-2000).]

LJK Raubvogel

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« Reply #57 on: November 11, 2000, 02:25:00 PM »
If you are assured of housing, healthcare, a job, and a pension, what is there to strive for? The "American Dream" is alive and well. With hard work, you can reap large rewards. Hard work in a Communist system gets you the same thing your lazy co-worker gets.

Yes, you English folk, Socialism works for some people. But any system that restricts my choices is a system I don't want.

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Offline Dowding

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« Reply #58 on: November 11, 2000, 06:36:00 PM »
Sorry if my answer is short - I don't have much time at the moment.

I'm not sure how much we pay. I do know that most people agree with paying extra in income tax if it means healthcare available to all. Private healthcare does exist, but I would say most people can't afford it (although alot of jobs these days come with a private healthcare package).

Like I've said before, its not a perfect system and it does have its shortcomings. The same goes for our style of government.

Raubvogel - who said anything abut being assured a job and a pension? The unemplyment benefit is barely adequate to live on (something like £40 a week - so that's about $60 I guess) and the same goes for a pension. The idea is that you can live on them, but your standard of living would be low - there is therefore an incentive to succeed in a job and in life in general. But if things go wrong (and they do to the best of us), then at least you've got something to fall back on, so you can start again.

There is 'council' housing for all - but again there is always an incentive to buy your house.

Well, that's the theory. It ain't perfect, but its preferable to many other systems. I don't mind paying a little extra to have good schools and hospitals, or to give a little extra to pensioners who fought in the War (which is alot of them).
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Offline 1776

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« Reply #59 on: November 11, 2000, 07:35:00 PM »
So your healthcare system is 2 tiered: one for the peasants and one for the rich.  

Hmmmmm, and prefered jobs will provide private healthcare.

So if I were a doctor why would I work in the government provided healthcare area?  Is it possible that the best doctors are in the private sector??

If any of the above is true I will stick to our system of insurance and the fact that I can seek out the best care possible. I don't want to stand in line and possibly be assigned to a doctor who is just in it for the fact he is unable to meet the demands of the market place!!  What incentive do the public healthcare people have?? They get paid if they cure ya or kill ya!!