Author Topic: Wonder how a slower plane can catch a faster one?  (Read 653 times)

Offline Simaril

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5149
Wonder how a slower plane can catch a faster one?
« on: July 06, 2006, 07:19:24 AM »
This AM got a kill that made the other guy made, because he thought there was no way I could have kept up with him. There were very good reasons why I did, and they're worth sharing....so see if this helps.

1) The most important reason a slow plane can catch a fast one is hard to see when you're  newer -- ENERGY. Think of energy as being speed times altitude, so a very high slow plane may have more potential speed than a fast one on the deck. In the past, I've been caught by a miserable IL2 even though I was in a P-51, because he dove from a big altitude advantage.

In my fight this morning, the P-47N actually started higher than my F4U-1C, but I caught up to him right away and he never was able to pull away over my 2 minute chase. He thought it was BS, but it wasnt - because -----

2) How you maneuver affects speed. Hard, sharp maneuvers kill speed fast. When the chase started, the P-47 dove nearly straight down to drop bombs. That meant that he had a hard pull out, using lots of elevator, to keep from augering. Meanwhile, my dive angle was more shallow, and I could slide onto his 6 gently without burning as much energy. I might have hit WEP sooner than he did too, since I knew he was faster and he thought he'd get away....but the biggest factor was how we used controls at the start.

I was 600 back once the tail chase got set up. I closed a little, then stayed steady at about 500 -- I'd see 600, then 400, then 600 on the icon. I shot some, and landed a few hits, spread out so they werent lethal.

Elevators cost more speed than airelons, and rudders are worse than either. He maneuvered to keep me from having an easy 6 straight shot, so he kept sliding from side to side in my gunsight. BUT he used elevatrors for some sharper moves, pulling back on the stick. I did as little as possible, rolling rather than pulling. That let me stay closer.

3) Straight line is shorter than a curved one! Once I hit him again, he made wider evasions. I made sure I did straighter ones, which meant that his more curved "S" moves drew longer lines than my flatter, smoother ones. I had a shorter distance to fly, so my slower plane could keep up.

[EDIT] The straight line thing is even more important with turns and half loops. When you make any curved flight path, be aware that pursuers can cut inside you and close quickly to get a shot. Think of how the bowstring is shorter than the bow itself![/EDIT]



I closed to right at 400, got another ping on his wing, and it fell off. The pilot, who's played a long time, was upset because he was thinking only about pure top speed and didnt understand how my slower plane coudl keep up -- but the chase wasnt BS, it was speed management.


EDIT
4) Fuel and Ordinance status make a difference
Bombs and rockets add drag plus more weight, and even internal fuel tanks are heavy! When a plane is heavier, the engine has to pull more mass forward, so the same power means slower acceleration and lower top speed. My C-Hog was low on fuel (arent they always!), and but I dont know how much gas he was lugging. [/EDIT]


So, if you manage your plane well, you'll start to see why vets say "It's not the plane, its the pilot!"
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 08:15:58 AM by Simaril »
Maturity is knowing that I've been an idiot in the past.
Wisdom is realizing I will be an idiot in the future.
Common sense is trying to not be an idiot right now

"Social Fads are for sheeple." - Meatwad

Offline Schatzi

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5729
      • http://www.slowcat.de
Wonder how a slower plane can catch a faster one?
« Reply #1 on: July 06, 2006, 07:34:47 AM »
Good points Simaril!
21 is only half the truth.

Offline bozon

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6037
Wonder how a slower plane can catch a faster one?
« Reply #2 on: July 06, 2006, 08:04:58 AM »
... and in addition the P47N is not faster than the F4u by more than a couple mph down low - with WEP. If he had no WEP left then the N is the slowest of all P47 models and much slower than the F4U.

Very few people realize that.

Bozon
Mosquito VI - twice the spitfire, four times the ENY.

Click!>> "So, you want to fly the wooden wonder" - <<click!
the almost incomplete and not entirely inaccurate guide to the AH Mosquito.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RGOWswdzGQs

Offline straffo

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10029
Wonder how a slower plane can catch a faster one?
« Reply #3 on: July 06, 2006, 08:32:36 AM »
True Bozon , I just checked : http://www.gonzoville.com/ahcharts/index.php

Below 5K the F4U is fast,faster than a lot of planes.

Offline StarOfAfrica2

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5162
      • http://www.vf-17.org
Wonder how a slower plane can catch a faster one?
« Reply #4 on: July 06, 2006, 04:00:28 PM »
You can also add to that the fact that the P-47 had been carrying ord, and even if he dropped it all he still had the racks, which cause drag.  

My memory is fuzzy on this point, but I seem to remember a statement that the planes that had been updated (like the P-47) would actually model the drag of the installed racks even after ord was depleted, while the older models that had not been updated yet (like the F4U) would only have drag modelled for the ord itself, while being carried.  Which would mean in essence, whatever speed advantage he MIGHT have had was negated anyway because his bomb racks slowed him down by providing more drag.

Offline Eagler

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18219
Wonder how a slower plane can catch a faster one?
« Reply #5 on: July 06, 2006, 04:36:40 PM »
nice post

I was on this morning and saw the text exchange - thanks for the civility on ch 200 there & an explanation here
"Masters of the Air" Scenario - JG27


Intel Core i7-13700KF | GIGABYTE Z790 AORUS Elite AX | 64GB G.Skill DDR5 | 16GB GIGABYTE RTX 4070 Ti Super | 850 watt ps | pimax Crystal Light | Warthog stick | TM1600 throttle | VKB Mk.V Rudder

Offline Murdr

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5608
      • http://479th.jasminemaire.com
Wonder how a slower plane can catch a faster one?
« Reply #6 on: July 06, 2006, 06:37:12 PM »
Good post Sim...If I may, Id like to suplement your energy description.

Quote
There are two types of energy. Kinetic energy is the energy you have now - your speed. Potential energy is the energy you have "in the bank" - your altitude. By diving, you can cash in some of your altitude (potential energy) and convert it to speed (kinetic energy).  "E" refers to the total kinetic, and potential energy you have avalible to you at any given moment.

It is also important to note that because the two types of energy ARE interchangeable, a lower, fast plane and a higher, slower plane may have equal E. Think about it a second. If the low plane converts it's kinetic energy into potential energy by climbing, it may well end up the same altitude and speed as the plane above it. Similarly, the high, slow plane can convert it's potential energy into kinetic energy by diving and matching the speed and alt of the lower plane.

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8800
Wonder how a slower plane can catch a faster one?
« Reply #7 on: July 06, 2006, 06:59:21 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by StarOfAfrica2
You can also add to that the fact that the P-47 had been carrying ord, and even if he dropped it all he still had the racks, which cause drag.  

My memory is fuzzy on this point, but I seem to remember a statement that the planes that had been updated (like the P-47) would actually model the drag of the installed racks even after ord was depleted, while the older models that had not been updated yet (like the F4U) would only have drag modelled for the ord itself, while being carried.  Which would mean in essence, whatever speed advantage he MIGHT have had was negated anyway because his bomb racks slowed him down by providing more drag.


P-47s, from the D-15 on, had strengthened wings and hardpoints for fitting pylons. Virtually every P-47 thereafter had pylons installed. They did not require special "racks". P-47s, P-51s and P-38s had pylons installed as standard equipment.

In the game, adding bombs to a P-47 (or P-51 and P-38) does not result in an increase in the base drag of the aircraft. After the bombs are dropped, drag is the same as if no bombs had ever been selected. There is no need to model pylon drag independently as they are integral to the airframe. This has been tested and verified.

In the real world, the pylons could be removed (but that would mean no drop tank or bomb capability under the wings). In Aces High, the pylons are not removable.

It doesn't matter what you fly if you mismanage your energy and/or have a lapse in SA, and Simaril's post seems to indicate that the P-47N driver did poorly at both during that particular sortie.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: July 06, 2006, 07:01:22 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline TequilaChaser

  • AH Training Corps - Retired
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 10173
      • The Damned - founded by Ptero in 1988
Wonder how a slower plane can catch a faster one?
« Reply #8 on: July 06, 2006, 07:34:31 PM »
are ya'll thinking about the P47D25 and its Rocket Pods?  I know they hinder your performance if ya use the D25 , but this is the only difference I have seen regarding the issue mentioned here ...........( ok, last I checked, been a wee bit since I took one up with Rockets, it may not keep em after rkt launch now since the redisgned P47s came out)
"When one considers just what they should say to a new pilot who is logging in Aces High, the mind becomes confused in the complex maze of info it is necessary for the new player to know. All of it is important; most of it vital; and all of it just too much for one brain to absorb in 1-2 lessons" TC

Offline StarOfAfrica2

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 5162
      • http://www.vf-17.org
Wonder how a slower plane can catch a faster one?
« Reply #9 on: July 07, 2006, 01:45:22 AM »
That may be what I was thinking of, or I could just be completely clueless TC.  Wouldnt be the first time.  :)

Thanks for the info Widewing.