Author Topic: Oleg says Bf109 rolls faster than Fw190 series? Huh, eh? WTF??  (Read 1801 times)

Offline -lynx-

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Oleg says Bf109 rolls faster than Fw190 series? Huh, eh? WTF??
« Reply #15 on: August 29, 2001, 06:15:00 AM »
Karnak - no disrespect but could you please stay on topic (roll rate) when putting your argument forward? I fail to see what relevance "Search views" have to comparing 109s and 190s roll rate, especially those of a Spit XIV.

I also find "easily", "slightly", "gains on" things when comparing 2 aircraft somewhat childish. How about roll rate in degrees per second?

Another question - which 109 this tactical comparison is talking about? And which model of 190 was considered for the tests (how many planes were used for testing would be another interesting thing to find out).

Somehow we all seem to forget that Western front 190 was not at all the same plane as it was used in the Eastern front - different roles entirely, different armour/armament.

The problem is that everyone just willing to accept "western sources" as god sent reliable info. From what you've just quoted I see them as BS, not the russian data. As Luthier pointed out in another thread 2 research establishments in Russia conducted tests using many a captured aircraft. Please note - not the factory data, not brand new planes - combat ready machines that flew real combat sorties!

Heads rolled (literally!) if the data presented was found to be inaccurate... Please be careful when you discount it so easily as BS...


fscott:

 
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If the FW190 was such a lousy roller, why did they ever go into production?
Who knows what made LW to select 190. I'm sure performance was not the only issue that was considered...

Offline Karnak

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Oleg says Bf109 rolls faster than Fw190 series? Huh, eh? WTF??
« Reply #16 on: August 29, 2001, 06:21:00 AM »
Whatever.  :rolleyes:
Petals floating by,
      Drift through my woman's hand,
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Offline Tuomio

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Oleg says Bf109 rolls faster than Fw190 series? Huh, eh? WTF??
« Reply #17 on: August 29, 2001, 06:42:00 AM »
Im in belief, that g2 will have about the same rollrate as 190a4 in Il-2. G2 definetly rolls good at il-2 in 500kmh (300mph), about the same as AH 190a5 at 300mph.
We cant argue on this much, since we cant test the a4 on il-2.
i cant figure out, why would they do unrealistic rollrates, as it should be one of the easiest things to model in FM (slider kinda of thing). If they model different roll rates in planes, why not model them according to charts?

If the retail FM rates fall in to their Russian charts, i have no doubt about them being realistic. Even if they dont, i will very much enjoy the flying in it.
What im concerned more, is the top speeds at different altitudes and climbrates. THOSE are the toughest part in dynamic FM, when you cant directly input them.

I hope they publish along with the box the speed/climb curves of different planes, so they can be studied for ACM purposes.

Offline R4M

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Oleg says Bf109 rolls faster than Fw190 series? Huh, eh? WTF??
« Reply #18 on: August 29, 2001, 06:53:00 AM »
Sadly I think we are in front of another CFS2, but this time coming from the East  :(

109s rolling like 190s. What a joke  :(

Offline -aper-

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Oleg says Bf109 rolls faster than Fw190 series? Huh, eh? WTF??
« Reply #19 on: August 29, 2001, 07:38:00 AM »
lynx wrote:
 
Quote
Another question - which 109 this tactical comparison is talking about?

According to the results of the test it seems to be the same 109G6/r6 from which all the books got the wrong max speed for G6.

Offline R4M

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Oleg says Bf109 rolls faster than Fw190 series? Huh, eh? WTF??
« Reply #20 on: August 29, 2001, 07:44:00 AM »
Aper, take a 109G2/R6 in the Il2 beta.

It still rolls like a 190.

Offline Staga

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Oleg says Bf109 rolls faster than Fw190 series? Huh, eh? WTF??
« Reply #21 on: August 29, 2001, 07:47:00 AM »
Ram you have few choices now:
1) Keep on whining
2) Shut up
3) Play game
4) wait 'till you see those TsAGI charts and decide after that.

Personally I prefer No.3 and 4.

Offline luthier

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Oleg says Bf109 rolls faster than Fw190 series? Huh, eh? WTF??
« Reply #22 on: August 29, 2001, 07:50:00 AM »
Guys,

I feel like I'm banging my head against the wall. All those tests show FW-190 as having an exceptional roll rate. However, where are the tests showing the Bf-109's roll rate? And not of the famed 109G6R6, but of something made for dogfights? Have there EVER been non battle damaged and not used/worn 109G2's flight tested in the US or UK?

Obviously, Russian data is not a proof for anyone over here. My personal opinion - and I'm not saying anyone other than me should accept it - is that if I had conflicting test results from two sides, I would trust the one that destroyed 3 times as many German planes and ran hundreds, if not thousands, more tests on dozens more of captured aircraft.

You also don't listen to the veterans who flew and scored with both Me-109 and FW-190, I guess it's no use talking to more of them.


What would be a good enough proof for us to present? FW and Messerschmitt factory data on those planes?

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: luthier ]

Offline Ripsnort

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Oleg says Bf109 rolls faster than Fw190 series? Huh, eh? WTF??
« Reply #23 on: August 29, 2001, 07:52:00 AM »
Anyone got a confirmation on which two models we're talking about?  I think if you had, say a FW190F model loaded up, then compared it to a ME109F, the 109F may indeed outroll the FW190F, no?

Offline luthier

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Oleg says Bf109 rolls faster than Fw190 series? Huh, eh? WTF??
« Reply #24 on: August 29, 2001, 08:08:00 AM »
Sorry...

[ 08-29-2001: Message edited by: luthier ]

Offline Staga

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Oleg says Bf109 rolls faster than Fw190 series? Huh, eh? WTF??
« Reply #25 on: August 29, 2001, 08:38:00 AM »
Something to think. Quotes are from CG-OnLine and SimHQ:

"Oleg Maddox, 40, attended the Moscow Aviation Institute and worked 11 years as the lead engineer for one of the largest Russian military research institutes."

"Maddox Games, headed up by ex-TsAGI aeronautical engineer Oleg Maddox, has been designing a World War II simulation for the PC for approximately two years."

If those are correct info about Mr.Maddox I would think twice before accusing him of modeling a FM wrong.
Last time my boss accused me I've calculated some things wrong we walked to our superior's room to check my calculations. Was quite funny to see how red and later white can someones face turn in couple minutes when we were around the table checking my calculations  ;)

Offline Boroda

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Oleg says Bf109 rolls faster than Fw190 series? Huh, eh? WTF??
« Reply #26 on: August 29, 2001, 08:46:00 AM »
From what Oleg answered on a Russian forum - I think that we'll get some very interesting data soon.

Looks like the current level of simulation accuracy in flight models isn't as high as we are told.

Can anyone show us NACA test results together with detailed test methodics and conditions?

Offline Ripsnort

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Oleg says Bf109 rolls faster than Fw190 series? Huh, eh? WTF??
« Reply #27 on: August 29, 2001, 08:46:00 AM »
Oleg, nice of you to come over and post. Thanks.  I think most agree that certain 109 models definately outperform the FW190's, just look at the 109G10 (or K model) compared to the Dora, I'd personally take a G10 to the Dora anyday...but the questionable material was the fact that the roll rate in a 109 being far superior to that of a 190.  While we're not sure what models were being discussed, I guess we'll have to wait to release.  Again, thank for posting.  I can understand your english just fine.


Offline Fishu

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Oleg says Bf109 rolls faster than Fw190 series? Huh, eh? WTF??
« Reply #29 on: August 29, 2001, 10:33:00 AM »
I have a suggestion.. it only has one problem..  whos rich?

Let's just build up BF109G2 and Fw190A5, then see which rolls better... mm'kay?

For all that time as I remember, I haven't seen claims about 109 being able to roll like 190.. phew.
Guess I got to begin studying again.