The most accurate news site on the web, TehranTimes.com (I swear they're 100% right)

[LtHans]

I don't know how my brother found this web site, but he let me see it.  Its in English and I have been reading it ever since September 11 to try and gain a perspective on the Muslim side of this argument.

I've come to one overbearing conclusion:

The Muslim press is full of toejam.

Note: you may quote me on that.

CHRIST ALMIGHTY IN A DUMPTRUCK!  Guys, they blatently make crap up.  Everything is the fault of Jews and the Americans.
 http://tehrantimes.com/

And I quote so you don't think I am making this up.

 

U.S. Using Chemical Weapons on Afghans: **La Liberation**

TEHRAN TIMES INTL. DESK
TEHRAN The French daily ** La Liberation ** announced on Tuesday that the United States had used chemical weapons against the human shield in Afghanistan.

The report comes after the U.S did not respond to similar accusations made by the Taleban last week.

And this

 

U.S., Israel Behind Terrorism


TEHRAN - The Palestinian Ambassador to the United Nations said that the U.S. and the Zionist regime are the main supporters of terrorism in the world.

He said the U.S. obeys no law and the fact that it supports the Zionist regime proves that it is a sponsor of international terrorism.

How about this

 

Most Britons Oppose War Against Afghanistan


TEHRAN - Most British people are opposed to the attacks against

Afghanistan. Although U.S. and British politicians have claimed that their people support the so-called campaign against terrorism, British and U.S. citizens have held many demonstrations calling for an end to the attacks against innocent people.

Ok, that one was a bit mild as there are a few demonstrations against war, but they're warping it to sound like even the US citizens hate their own government.

 

Banisadr: Britain, U.S. Created Taleban


TEHRAN - The deposed former president, Abolhassan Banisadr, said in an article published in the French daily ****Le Monde***** that the Taleban were created by British and U.S. and that Pakistan implemented the plan.

According to AFP, Banisadr added that U.S. and Britain created the Taleban in an effort to promote their interests in the region.

The one thing that strikes me funny about that whole website is the complete lack of any names or creditials....anywhere.  There is never a name printed once.  No authors, no souces other than "reliable government source".

Also, a few times the guy let slip some hints that lead me to beleave he is living in Britain, not Iran.  He talked once about "Muslims here" in an article...if you can call it that...about Muslims in England.

There are also older articles about 5,000 Jews that didn't go to work on September 11, and that the planes that were hijacked were actually CIA or Israeli Massad (Israeli intelligence).  Its all a scheme to attack Muslims.

What a bunch of lowlifes love muffines.  I can't think of enough swear words I want to use right now.  I just better leave it at that.

Hans.

[streakeagle]

To be fair, do you think our press is any better? Often we are shown video clips and quotes out of context to put a "spin" on a story. Public opinion and confidence is frequently manipulated for political and economic gains in this country. I understand enough about our government and the news media to know that I can not say I really know anything about the middle east and its people since the majority of my knowledge comes from U.S. propaganda.

I agree with their assertions on our country's respect of the law and support of terrorism. Our country does whatever the almighty dollar decides is best with no moral restrictions. Just look at how we have treated South America since we have been a country. I count U.S. installed military dictatorships with their death squads and "rebels" armed with U.S. supplied M-16s as American backed terrorists. No one can deny we put Noriega in power in Panama to support our interests, and when he stopped doing so we removed him just as easily.

I love my country and even served 8 years in the Navy on submarines defending it. But I have no delusions that we are morally superior. I love my way of life here. It is the job of our government to protect that way of life by any means necessary. I don't have to lie to myself about the morality of what my government is doing to accept it as necessary to preserve our way of life.

I understand "they" (insert any smaller country being abused by western powers such as the U.S.) hate our way of life and how we impose it on every country we come into contact with. I understand they are trying to protect their way of life by any means necessary. Given that their opponents are the best armed and most industrialized countries in the world (NATO plus Japan), terrorism is the most cost effective way to fight since oil embargos hurt their own economy far too much.

On the issue of Israel: Imagine if Mexicans complaining about the U.S. illegally annexing the southwest and centuries of being persecuted within the U.S. got NATO to back a Mexican military takeover of Texas. 40 years later, Americans and Mexicans would still be very hateful toward each other. Would the Texans displaced by the Mexican takeover be wrong to want to take back their homes by force and to resort to terrorism to fight their Mexican oppressors? Are the Mexicans wrong for wanting back valuable land that was their home in the first place? Now substitute Muslims for Texans and Israelis for Mexicans.

I don't see any lasting solution to the world peace problem. Even countries with similar religious and moral standards eventually fight over resources. As long as large populations maintain national, economic, and/or religious identities and believe the interests of their group are more important or more correct than the rest of the world, there will be war and terrorism. Countries strong enough to impose their will on other countries fight military and economic wars. Countries too small to do that resort to terrorism. What is the difference? People needlessly die either way in the name of ideals, religion, pride, money, and power.

What's funny is how large numbers of less than wealthy average people willing or not always die for the interests of the elite. I don't see Osama dying for his cause, just asking others to do so for him while he provides the cash. At least Osama has fought on the front lines for his beliefs. American politicians like Bill Clinton and George Bush Jr. never intentionally face the forces they direct others to fight against (that a terrorist or assassin might get through is certainly not a desired event).

The principal difference I see between the U.S. and the majority of its opponents is that here I have the option to choose courses of action that may allow me to become one of the elite. One other big difference: I can say whatever I want in this post with little fear that the U.S. goverment will censor it or hunt me down and punish me for it. Though, even in the U.S. there are limits on what you can say without being arrested, executed, or conveniently dying in some sort of accident. But those limits are obviously far different than those of non-western countries where the press only distributes government propaganda and anyone dissenting in any way are imprisoned or executed (China is the most obvious case, but Arab countries don't seem to be much better as seen through my American slanted news).

[ 10-31-2001: Message edited by: streakeagle ]

[Fatty]

http://pppp.net/links/news/

Great site for reading newspapers from any country in the world.

One of the Cairo newspapers actually includes articles in the online version that are censored by govt officials for the in-country edition (complete with editorial comments attempting to guess the reasons for articles being pulled).

Iranian newspapers have been fairly pro-US, though remains to be seen if that's because they really want to change or just really hate the taliban.

[Fatty]

PS - Try Iran Daily for the "other side of the story" in Iran (you need acrobat to read it btw)  
 http://www.iran-daily.com/

[Professor Fate]

www.fas.org  has got some hot intel, I bet ripsnort has this one in his favorites already    

[ 10-31-2001: Message edited by: Professor Fate ]

[Cabby44]

Streak:

You gotta be toejamtin' me.  How anyone could spend eight years as a Submariner and come out sounding like Hillary Clinton is beyond belief........

Cabby

[ 10-31-2001: Message edited by: Cabby44 ]

[Red Ant]

Cabby, he doesnt sound ANYTHING like the Hilarious One! For one, he actually has a brain and uses it to make a sober, independent judgement. Note that streakeagle's is a PRO_AMERICAN post, its just not seen through rose-colored lenses 2'' thick.

Mind you, I'm rather pro-Israel in my outlook, and don't agree with a lot of what he espouses. I don't think the Mexican analogy is a good one per se, but it and other points that Streakeagle raised does demonstrate that the U.S., like ANY other sovereign nation, acts out of self-interest  rather than some noble principle or sense of manifest destiny.

I also applaud Streakeagle's succinct description of what makes the U.S. different, and a better way of life.

You sir, on the other hand, continue to astound me with your lack of any meaningfull content to contribute  

[Wobble]

To be fair, do you think our press is any better

To be fair.. are you legally retarded??

"US and britian created Taleban"

"US using chemical weapons against Afgan Civilians"

"the US and Isreal are the MAIN supporters of terrorism throughout the world"

Sure, the 'free press' (CNN..etc) may put a 'spin' on some stories to sway one way or another.. but putting a spin on something it alot different that COMPLETELY MAKING IT UP FROM THIN AIR.

the tehran times is the biggest sack of made up toejam this side of the milky way.. just from what ive read there I would say the average celebrity stalking tabliod has more accurate and REALISTIC 'stories' than this crap..

its just sad that there are so many people in the world are stupid and or brainwashed enough to actually beleive ANY of that crap.

[streakeagle]

8 years of serving in submarines, 3 of which were in "special projects" doing things that I can neither confirm nor deny, took all of the rose color out of my glasses.

Right or wrong, our government and military leaders do what will ensure their own personal success and survival which (fortunately) often includes the success and survival of our country. Many laws, national and international, are broken on a daily basis for the benefit of national security and/or the interests of the rich and powerful (which are considered the same in a country run by greed). If you don't get caught, it didn't happen.

I found the stresses of a submarine lifestyle and the political motivation behind most of the work I risked my life doing to be unacceptable. I am much happier being in control of my life including the morals I choose to live by rather than having to blindly follow someone else's orders as long as they are "legal".

I joined to serve and defend my country with honor, not work for people like Bill Clinton (and so many other politicians and military leaders) who lie, cheat, and steal for their own personal gains. To compare me to Hillary because I do not support right-wing extemists anymore than left-wing ones is just plain silly. Given a choice between Democrats and Republicans (which are unfortunately the only real choices we have), I tend to side with Republicans. Though at this point in my life I don't care for either of them. Both of their agendas fundamentally conflict with my own.

We laughed at the USSR for having a one party system. How much better is a two party system?

[streakeagle]

Wobble,

Are you saying our government and our press never told outright lies as big as these?

"US and britian created Taleban"
(we certainly contributed by supporting people like Bin Laden and through our inaction after the Soviet pullout, remember that we also directly created Castro in Cuba)

"US using chemical weapons against Afgan Civilians"
(I don't have sufficient information to make a substantive statement on that, but if we are using depleted uranium rounds which even contaminated U.S. troops in Desert Storm in strafing attacks or using "agent orange" style chemicals to clear plant life as in Vietnam, they may technically be right)

"the US and Isreal are the MAIN supporters of terrorism throughout the world"
(With the collapse of the Soviet Union, I agree with this 100% on the U.S part, read the history of Africa, Central America, and South America... wherever U.S. economic interests are at stake, there are "rebels" fighting in our favor using equipment supplied by us. U.S. troops sent to Russia after WWI to fight the Bolsheviks would could even be classified as terrorists. The definition of "terrorist" is very much a matter of your viewpoint. I am sure that the tactics of the Mossad would be considered terrorism if they were attacking us.)

Lets start with Vietnam since it is recent and was at least as painful if not more so than the recent tragedies.

Why were we really there? Why was Kennedy killed? Who killed Kennedy? Time-Warner fully backs the "magic bullet" theory and back in the day did everything in their power to suppress the release of the Zapruder film. Anyone who denies that the goverment and media didn't cover something up hasn't read the goverment's own documents. Of course, like any other third world country opposed to Communism, we installed corrupt military dictatorship in Vietnam to support our interests.

Regardless of why we were there, why did the press put out reports that we lost the Tet-Offensive when it was the single most successful day in U.S ground combat of the entire Vietnam War? We won the Tet Offensive! Yet instead of marking the road to victory, it became the pivotal point in our defeat since we really did lose the war when those reports made it look like we had failed so badly and irrevocably turned public opinion against the war.

How about the more recent Gulf War, where the media felt guilty about what happened in Vietnam and echoed whatever propaganda the goverment supplied. It was not a push-button war as depicted on TV. There were large scale ground actions with large numbers of dead including Iraqi military and civillians. I know people who were there and saw if not participated in some of the slaughters. Killing people is a necessary part of war, how come the government and media refused to report all of the killing and made it look like all we did was use smart bombs to hit hard military targets? The media and government (having learned form past experiences) generally know how the public will respond to news and filter it to get the response they want. In this rare case, the media actually backed up the government and made Desert Storm look like a clean, bloodless victory. Whereas later facts show very high casualties in terms of Iraqi soldiers and citizens for very little victory beyond the "liberation" of Kuwait, if you can call restoring the existing government there "liberation".

When I read a headline in any newspaper, be it Arab or American, I take it with a grain of salt. How much do we, the general public, really know about what is happening in global politics? We only know what the news reporters tell us, and they omit or distort things as they see fit to support their own views.

I once saw a news report in California where they were showing the local Sheriffs firing weapons seized from criminals. That state's government and media is anti-gun, especially anti-assault rifle. So they resequenced the video to show an AK firing followed by a watermelon exploding to show how deadly assalt rifles are, while pistols just punched little holes. Of course, people that were really there (who later ratted out the media) knew the truth: the rifle rounds went straight through the watermelons leaving only bullet sized holes while the hollow-point pistol rounds were the ones that blew up the fruit.

If you believe that U.S. media are any more honest or fair than those headlines you quoted, please don't let me pop your bubble. I wish I still had the naive, child-like beliefs that the Americans are the good guys in white and anyone who opposes us must be bad guys in black. It is a gray world, and sometimes the U.S. is a darker shade of gray than I or anyone else would ever care to admit.

[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: streakeagle ]

[GRUNHERZ]

Streakeagle you sound like the idiot anti-America protestors at my college, thats sad......

You actually think that Americans are terrorists?

If you do, since you are an American please go to Afghanistan and blow yourself up at a market or other civilian gathering. Ok, Mr America terrorist?

[miko2d]

Originally posted by GRUNHERZ:
[QB]You actually think that Americans are terrorists[QB]

 That is a stupid conclusion to make out of reasonable and informative post.

 Americans are not terrorists - they are mostly overweight, ignorant people who do not really wish harm to anyone.
 They just keep electing equally ignorant amateurs to be their governments and those with best intentions end up supporting/creating terrorists - the Taliban and Northern Alliance the best examples, though lot of "rebels", "freedom fighters" and death squads in other countries too.
 Many of our friends happened to be oppressive monarchies and dictatorships who just loved to involve us into their dirty busines under pretext of "communist threat" or "US interests" - like Kuwaiti sheikhs.

 Pretty often we realise those people are scum but do it anyway "to fight the greater evil" and do what constitutes a compromise with our consiense and deal "with the devil to fight lucifer".
 The problem is that americans are not smart enough to deal with the devil - and often end up for worse because of it.
 If we do not have enough intelligence, whe should not try to substitute it for our principles. We have no need to. The best brains in our country are in business, not politics. Stop screwing up with people's countries and our corporations will end up owning them - and making profit.

 If it were really true that americans do not support what we ourselves would call terrorism, then we are even more stupid - because a lot of people in the world think so. We would have to be twice as stupid to be completely innocent and still appear guilty.

 There may very few places where we should have been involved - like Korea, Vietnam and Cuba - even though we had to deal with scum there. There was no reason for us to go protecting Kuwaiti sheihks and Saudi princes. I fail to see why they are better then our former closest friend Hussein.

 In some cases we may be right to supply military aid or conduct covert operations - and we do so. We should also fully expect to take the heat for those actions that are rightly considered hostile by the enemies. Of course our government does not realise that bu such actions we may be pissing someone off till they come and knock us on the noggin.
 We do support Israel in it's war. If we cared that much about those jews, how come we did not offer them (and palestinians too) free access to our country? Would have cost us much less in military help and would have added 4-5 million of good taxpayers. I guess we do not care that much about them but enough to support the war there. Last time US supported the war this way, Hitler declared war on US. If I remember correctly, americans did not cry that they did not do anything but got up and fought. That is what we should do now, not pretend that we are peacefull people and war is not happening and if it does, we have nothing to do with it.

 miko

[ 11-01-2001: Message edited by: miko2d ]

[streakeagle]

Grunherz,

We call Muslims fighting a war for their cause through undeclared warfare such as bombing buildings, airliners, and mining the Persian gulf terrorism, right?

What do you call it when the CIA pays El Salvodorans to mine Nicaraguan harbors?

Like I said earlier, "terrorism" is a matter of viewpoint. The CIA, like the KGB, sponsored an awful lot of it when they were too busy to do it themselves.

I did not say such acts were unnecessary to protect our interests. But I am sure that the Muslims feel they are doing what they have to as well. Of course, as their target, we don't approve of their goals or actions and therefore label them "terrorists" rather than "freedom fighters" or "rebels", which is what we used to call the Mujadeen and Bin Laden when they were "terrorizing" the Russians.

Funny how the same group of people performing the same actions for the same reasons can get two different labels depending on whether the side choosing the label is being attacked or not. Muslims don't want Russians or Americans in their sphere of influence no more than Americans want anyone else occupying or influencing countries in the Western hemisphere.

I am not some naive college student protesting the darker activities of our government. Nor am I some hypocrite who pretends that our government never kills people for its own selfish reasons. If some Nicaraguan Communists and Arab Muslims must die or be oppressed so that I can have online air combat sims, Nike shoes, TV, air conditioning, and gas-guzzling cars at reasonable prices, so be it. Unfortunately, to improve the rest of the world, the U.S. would have to drop its standard of living. I have been raised to accept capitalism. Survival of the fittest. We have the standard of living we do because our citizens have done what it takes to achieve it, including two World Wars and one hell of a Cold War. I am not in favor of any liberal/humanitarian policies that would eliminate the activities that protect the freedoms that allow us to even think about being liberal or humanitarian. If others want the freedom and prosperity we have, let them pay in blood and money like we have.

[Hangtime]

Interesting posts.

Streak; I can't tell if yer glass is half full; or half empty.

So; tell us fat ignorant and under-educated unworthy slobs what you think this nation should do, given the current dismal circumstances of our own creation.

[MrBill]

<S> streak
"3 of which were in "special projects" doing things that I can neither confirm nor deny, took all of the rose color out of my glasses."

and

"I wish I still had the naive, child-like beliefs that the Americans are the good guys in white and anyone who opposes us must be bad guys in black. It is a gray world, and sometimes the U.S. is a darker shade of gray than I or anyone else would ever care to admit."

plus much more edited out ...

Memories of forty years ago when another naive young man had the tint taken out of his glasses ... things do not change much. <sigh>
 
You just take what they taught you, forget all the bs from campus life, make enough, (note I did not say EARN enough) and bug out to a nondescript little burg in "out of the way" middle america.  Then sit back and giggle at the rats in the BIG races in the anthills of the country doing all that important stuff they do.  

Looks like you got a handle on real life, I wish you well.