IL-2: Oleg's explainations about roll rates.

[Boroda]

http://www.sukhoi.ru/cgi-bin/forum/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=5&t=000264

It's a thread on a Russian IL-2 board where I tried to ask some questions asked here to Oleg. It turned to be an interesting discussion about flight-models and other aspects of FlightSim industry.

The key point about roll rates is that Oleg's team doesn't model "compression" the way most of the modern flightsims do.

He simply doesn't model the "stick load" as, for example, in WB, where flying Ki-43 at certain speed you can move stick in any direction with no reaction. In Il-2 stick is mechanically connected to control surfaces. So, you can easily move the stick to a position what could demand a 40-50kg force in RL.

NACA roll rate charts were tested with standard ~20kg force applied to stick. I bet that pilots like Ivan Kozhedub (who could cross himself with a 32-kg weight) were able to apply up to maybe 50-60kg to stick. So, imagine that we are all weight-lifters and bodybuilders in IL-2.

This approach can be discussed, but I think that it can be found reasonable. It's Oleg's game, and asking him to follow the traditions means to make a quite different game. Like asking the "Digger" designers to change the controls completely.

[Animal]

It does make sense, but why do I want to fly a sim with fly-by-wire planes?

He should only do that if EVERYONE had very realistic force feedback joysticks.

[Swoop]

um.....anyone got a link to a translator that handles russian?


1st question:  If he doesnt model compression the way other sims do then how does he model it?

 

[AKDejaVu]

1st question: If he doesnt model compression the way other sims do then how does he model it?

He doesn't model it.

That's why Animal's "Fly by wire" statement is right on the money.

AKDejaVu

[Boroda]

The question he asked there: please, what does "compression" mean?  

IL-2 physical model has many aerodinamical effects included. Probably even some that were not known back in 1940-s.

He already said that he doesn't know any "realistic" FFB sticks.

Translator: www.translate.ru

[Tuomio]

Compression, as ive understood,is modeled. Compression means, that you reach speed, where your aeliron movements doesent have any effect to the plane roll/whatever. If you reach 100% deflection when you compress, it has no affect to your plane or only very slight. In AH you can reach it easily in p38, but jug breaks up before that speed.

Also pilot strenght is modeled in il-2, but its not that restricted as 50lbs max, someone stated that its 40-50kg in il-2; makes big difference in performance of higher speeds like over 300mph. 50kg is no big deal atleast with 2 hands and pull/push. Sideways are different.
There was no aerodyamic restriction of 109-g2 rolling almost as fast as some 190 models, atleast this has been stated by Oleg and i have no doubt about hes professionalism in aerodynamics. Only difference can be seen in NACA charts, theyre accurate, but only to 50lbs stick forces. The quoted books have very different statemens, but i believe the stories are not made up. The pilot just maybe were fatigued, newbie or had bad petrolium. AH is not based on book statements, but on test charts, same goes on il-2.

   
(250kmh/156mph)
 
(650kmh/406mph)
 
(notice the speed and aeliron deflection)

"I've made some (very simple) rollrate-tests, and according to these tests, the ME109 takes approx. 2,5 seconds for a360°-roll @250km/h and 5 seconds @650KM/h (same altitude, both throttle @0%, left roll)
So, I see a decrease in rollrate with speed."

[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: Tuomio ]

[Hristo]

Pilot strenght is modeled.

You can watch how much you can deflect the stick at various speeds in the cockpit. Use forward down view.

       

     

Red arrows point to maximum stick deflections and speed indicator. In both cases joystick is fully deflected.

Also, read http://www.simhq.com/simhq3/sims/boards/bbs/Forum35/HTML/001701.html

[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: Hristo ]

[Tuomio]

Remember, all of those gauges have meaning, especially the throttle.
Try to apply 1.6-1.7 (100% throttle) for 10 minutes, and you break your manifold. Then you get degrading performance, until you can apply only 0.7 ata max.
Thats the engine management were talking. We also have radiator management, which is another issue. Radiator have manual uses in almost every aircraft, every aircraft generated drag when radiator is opened (modeled). 109 has the biggest performance degrade when radiator is opened. Also, in MP you can zoom in and see the radiator setting of your enemy.
 

[funkedup]

What Boroda seems to be saying is that there are no stick forces modeled other than the springs in your joystick.  That's probably OK for a single player air-to-ground sim.

As for the "fly by wire" comments, ALL flight sims are fly by wire.

Compression is (incorrect) flight sim pilot lingo for increase in stick forces due to dynamic pressure.

Compressibility effects are something different, which occur once the aircraft's critical Mach has been reached.  Depending on the particular aircraft, this can cause the controls to be impossible to move, or easy to move but completely ineffective.

[ 09-01-2001: Message edited by: funkedup ]

[fscott]

The engine/radiator management I really like. It has added a whole new variable into combat.

I find myself constantly flipping switches and pushing buttons all the while trying to kill my target.  Pilot load is most enjoyable.


I still don't know where Oleg stands on modelling pilot strength to push the stick one way or the other.  

To not model pilot strength(and weakness for that matter), would be ludicrous.

A pilot is what makes the aircraft, not the other way around.

Hell, let's just do away with turbulence, compression, drag and other variables that affect an aircraft's performance. Afterall, aren't these variables adversely affecting the *true* performance of the aircraft?

How stupid.

[Hristo]

Have you seen the pics. Pilot strenght is there ! Or am I missing something ?

[Creamo]

Pilot Strength? Arrows, Diagrams?

God you guys are total studmuffin/geeks, and whats the stinger is, you can't defend that hard, gay, plain truth!

Good Lord.

Borrow StSantas rent, I mean wacky WWII helmet, and just geek the fuk out.

Fools.

[fscott]

LOL, I have no idea what Creamo just said. Anyone have a translation?

[highflyer]

I'd Say that those Pictures above summerize, pretty simply, that compression is OBVIOUSLY enabled.  

I dont get you people here. You rant and rave about aces high cabilities being superior. I think you guys are going to be editing your posts, when IL2 goes the same route as far as mulitplay is concerned.

Comparing Aces to IL2 is apples and oranges when talking about the multiplay aspect.

Other wise IL2 is the far superior peice of technology.

Just look at who is being the role model now?

Id say that more additions that IL2 has (example Gyroscopic gunsight) are going to be added. It will not be long untill htc, starts layering textures to simulate trees.

Also, the problems that are hindering Aces High Direct X capibilites are, and have already been solved by IL2. Who do you really think is more on the ball here?
Not only does IL2 give you direct X support, but also openGL, which time after time has proven to be the more fluid,  crossplatform, efficent api.

Give IL2 the chance to get out of Prebeta first, then try to mock it.  So far IL2 has more going for it than Aces did when it was beta.

[Zigrat]

have to agree with that, il2 beta certainly appears better than aces high beta.. but aces high isnt beta and il2 is so ...