F6F-5... Much improved since last tested

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Oleg
In neutral, for example?

High-speed handling is all about compression. If you can perform high speed maneuvers with "main" control surfaces w/o trim adjusting then your plane has good handling at high speed, if you need to adjust your trim - your plane has bad handling at high speed. Easy enough, huh?
In RL all high-speed handling test performed w/o trim adjusting, i believe. So you cannt make your tests with combat trims on and compare it with RL tests.

But if your point about combat trim realizations only, then ok, i can agree with you. It dont means F6F5's trims are wrong, nevertheless. M.b. they actually was more effective than usual due some reasons, i dont know.

High-speed handling isn't exclusively related to compression. It is also related to mechanical power advantage of the aircraft controls to displace surfaces when under high aero forces. For example, the A6M series suffered from a lack of rolling ability due to the a lack of mechanical advantage and high aileron forces. This had nothing to do with compression. Bf 109s suffered from high control forces at speeds well below that where compression was an issue.

Test reports I've read indicated that aircraft were trimmed as required. Neutral trim will result in a pitch-up condition at high speeds for the real F6F because of wing and tailplane incidence.

In the game, you can trim nose full down and actually improve F6F high-speed handling a bit by reducing the tendency to pitch up, but this is not beneficial below 550 mph.

Some aircraft require more trim adjustment over the full speed range than others. Hellcats require very little. Ki-84s require a lot. If planes were perfectly well balanced over the entire speed range, they would not need tabs. However, all designs are a compromise. Indeed, the primary purpose of the tabs if to reduce the labor of flying by minimizing the forces operating against the pilot's controls. A properly trimmed aircraft generates less drag and greatly reduces pilot workload.

Within the game, Combat trim works very well, except at the extreme ends of the speed envelope. Most planes see no measureable gain trimming manually at very low speeds. Virtually all will see an improvement by trimming manually at high speeds, some more than others. In this case, the F6F probably benefits the least by manual trimming.

My regards,

Widewing

[Bombardy]

I took a look at your data, and originally I screamed "blasphemer! blasphemer! dirty dirty poopy face!"

but then I decided to try several engagements in the TA, a squaddie of mine and I switched off between the F6F and KI-84

one thing that should be noted, the turn performance of the Ki-84 with full flaps results in miserable performance, this is not something that is normally done.


Here's what the results were:
The F6F pilot needs to take the shot or two he gets on the initial part of the engagement, otherwise the KI is controling the fight after the first 40 secs or so

zoom performance is about the same but the combination of better acceleration and better climb of the KI is leathal to the F6F

once settled into a climbing spiral the KI will climb up and away from the F6F and the Hellcat will never be able to get the nose high enough to get a shot, eventuall the KI will roll over on top and then it's game over

in one fight, the F6F decided to disenage from a climbing spiral at 7K and dive straight down on to the deck, and while the KI was at it's dive limits, it stayed on and infact pulled into about D400 from the hellcats tail

I fly the KI all the time, so I felt completely comfortable, and the other pilot who basically never flies the KI84 still came to the same conclusion: we would both much rather be in the KI84 in the fight instead of the F6F.

 POOPY FACE!!! POOPY POOPY POOPY FACE!!!!!!!!!

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Bombardy


I fly the KI all the time, so I felt completely comfortable, and the other pilot who basically never flies the KI84 still came to the same conclusion: we would both much rather be in the KI84 in the fight instead of the F6F.

 POOPY FACE!!! POOPY POOPY POOPY FACE!!!!!!!!!

I'm in the TA training folks almost every week night, usually after 9 PM eastern. So, drop on in and we can duel, F6F-5 Vs Ki-84.

My regards,

Widewing

[Bombardy]

I'll drop in and see if I can catch you in the TA

all your bullets are rubber and mine are glue, they bounce off me and stick to you!

[Oleg]

Originally posted by Widewing
Test reports I've read indicated that aircraft were trimmed as required.

To maintain straight-line flight, as it was used in RL almost exclusively.

Originally posted by Widewing
Neutral trim will result in a pitch-up condition at high speeds for the real F6F because of wing and tailplane incidence.

Sure. I said it just to note not every trim position affect you flight.

Originally posted by Widewing
In the game, you can trim nose full down and actually improve F6F high-speed handling a bit by reducing the tendency to pitch up, but this is not beneficial below 550 mph.

Like in any other plane, isnt it?
May be Hellcat has better trims than other planes, may be not. And i dont know how it must be actually, because i never see any mentions about trim effectiveness in any plane.

And i will say it again: you cannt compare tests related to high-speed handling with combat trims enabled and RL tests. It has not any sense.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Oleg
-
Like in any other plane, isnt it?
May be Hellcat has better trims than other planes, may be not. And i dont know how it must be actually, because i never see any mentions about trim effectiveness in any plane.

And i will say it again: you cannt compare tests related to high-speed handling with combat trims enabled and RL tests. It has not any sense.

I've dive tested most of the plane set. Using manual trim in all but two does not prevent lock-up. In a Spitfire, 190 or P-51 full nose up trim results in an inability to point the nose where you want it, and the aircraft simply climbs out until the speed drops. Full nose down trim will result in a terminal velocity dive that will result in a crash. Full nose down trim in an F6F does not result in a loss of control. That makes it rather unique among the other planes in the game. Using combat trim significantly hurts those others at very high dive speeds, while the F6F suffers much less than they do while in combat trim.

Perhaps it is the language barrier, but I have never implied that combat trim is in any way comparable to actual aircraft. Only you have mentioned RL aircraft. My discussion had been, up until that point, confined to planes within the game.

I'm trying clear up any misunderstanding....

My regards,

Widewing

[Oleg]

Originally posted by Widewing
Perhaps it is the language barrier, but I have never implied that combat trim is in any way comparable to actual aircraft. Only you have mentioned RL aircraft. My discussion had been, up until that point, confined to planes within the game.
 

I thought next quote bold paragraph was related to RL planes. If not, then i didnt understood your words right.

Originally posted by Widewing
Two fighters known for having superior control at very high speeds in a dive are the Spitfires and F4Us.

I performed the exact same dive test flying the Spitfire Mk.VIII and F4U-1D. As with the F6F, dives began at 22.5k by rolling inverted. Combat trim was enabled.

You shall see that the Spitfire locked up and gradually eased out of the dive into a climbing right turn. It was impossible to control until speed had bled down.

On the other hand, the F4U also locked up. It did "free-up" eventually, but was uncontrollable at speeds where the F6F maneuvers easily.

[Widewing]

Originally posted by Oleg
I thought next quote bold paragraph was related to RL planes. If not, then i didnt understood your words right.

I should have been more specific. My bad.

My regards,

Widewing