Author Topic: Pat Buchanan is Right  (Read 2198 times)

Offline Nash

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Pat Buchanan is Right
« Reply #45 on: July 23, 2006, 12:33:14 AM »
Watched it yet?

Offline Leslie

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Pat Buchanan is Right
« Reply #46 on: July 23, 2006, 12:36:01 AM »
No, I can't watch videos easily on dial-up.  Have tried before and after waiting several minutes with nothing happening, well you understand.  Sorry.




Les

Offline Nash

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« Reply #47 on: July 23, 2006, 12:36:40 AM »
Yeah - no worries.

Offline Gunston

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« Reply #48 on: July 23, 2006, 02:06:10 AM »
I would like to ask all those opposed to the war and now supporting Mr. Buchanan’s position to consider whether your opposition is truly to the war or merely to Bush.
Consider the following quote by Ulysses S. Grant.
“Experience proves that the man who obstructs a war, in which his nation is engaged, no matter whether right or wrong, occupies no enviable place in life or history. Better for him, individually, to advocate war, pestilence, and famine than to act as obstructionist to a war already begun. The history of the defeated rebel will be honorable hereafter, compared with that of the Northern man who aided him by conspiring against his government while protected by it. The most favorable posthumous history the stay-at-home traitor can hope for is - oblivion.”

Winston Churchill’s Memoirs of the second World War Volume I, The Gathering Storm. Explains how in pre-war Europe much like now, in an open democratic society our biggest weakness is allowing our own domestic politics to weaken our resolve and to thwart our decision making capabilities. That is the sole point of terrorism, to foment domestic political opposition in the enemy country.
In the afterward to the abridged edition, written in 1955 in the thick of the Cold War, Churchill predicts that the Soviet Union will collapse on itself and the greatest crisis facing the West will be the Arab Israeli conflict.
And I doubt he foresaw the true role of oil at that point in history. It is no coincidence that Britain was the only major European state to actively participate in Iraq II.

Saddam and Al Qaeda are weak and non influential today only because they have been preempted, just like Milosevic. It is one of the supreme ironies of history and life that pacifism causes war.

As far as Iraq consider what the likely alternatives to going to war were.
Continued repression and mass murder by the Baathist dictatorship, which eventually with massive oil income and failing sanctions would have allowed Iraq to reconstitute itself as a threat to the region, perhaps with Uday or Kusay in power.

Or perhaps the fall of Saddam due to internal revolt of the Shia and Kurds, which would have involved a high intensity bloodbath that would make today's low intensity war look rather “civil” by comparison.

This probably would have also involved active military intervention by at least Turkey, Syria and Iran and perhaps non-local forces such as China, Pakistan, or Russia. So, if you think you can wish away the problems in Iraq by being anti-"neo-con", you are dreaming.

While the current situation is not perfect, in my view the world and the region are much better off since the US is attempting to manage the situation and trying to work toward some level of stability.

 I also believe the Iraq War was necessary because it is in the national interest and the interest of the current Western led world’s political and economic order to position substantial ground troops in the region for the long term.

The presence of  permanent US base’s in Iraq provide an adequate US military presence in the region to keep things in line without inflaming tensions like the Saudi bases did.

I don't know if you realize this but today there is not a single American troop or military facility in Saudi Arabia, a prime recruiting tool and supposed justification for 9-11 according to Bin Laden. Our primary air base has been moved to Qatar. Our ground troops and armor are based primarily in Kuwait and Iraq.

Because of Iraq II, we were able to remove one of the primary motivations for a Wahhabist revolution in Saudi Arabia. This was done under cover of the Iraq War to assure that it did not appear that Bin Laden had ordered us out, thus further enhancing his stature in the Arab World.

No I don’t like the war, call me a “neo-con” if you will. I have an eleven year old son and I would find my life not worth living if something ever happens to him. But I don’t believe we can use the rational of the pre-WWII isolationist and hope our oceans will protect us from the threats that we now face.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #49 on: July 23, 2006, 02:35:08 AM »
Part of what it means to be "liberal" I guess.
You get to think what you want and aggree with a person on one issue but not on another.
Hard for people who call themselves "conservatives" now to understand.
If you make your decsisions rationaly and not by fear or hate or brainwashing it really lets you listen to all sides of every issue and leaves you less exposed to the kind of brain washing that most "conservatives" on this board have been subected to for the last 5 years. As the lies they loved get torn up one by one and the dead pile up they just look for someone else to hate.
And who better to hate then the ones that were not as stupid as you and didnt drink the koolaid.

It is very funny though that the only guy that seems to be able to go for the throat with Bush is another conservative..
Man the democratic party are a bunch of beaten pups.

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #50 on: July 23, 2006, 02:44:22 AM »
Gunston.. OMG.
The depths that people will go to try an rationalize truths that undermine thier world view is increadable.

Offline FUNKED1

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« Reply #51 on: July 23, 2006, 04:16:34 AM »
Pre-empted Al Qaeda?  About 14 years late...

Offline Delirium

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« Reply #52 on: July 23, 2006, 04:53:56 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
The depths that people will go to try an rationalize truths that undermine thier world view is increadable.


While I may disagree with some of his ideas, you can't disprove his views anymore than he can prove them. Maybe he is right, we will never know...

Being proactive is great, but you need to perform like a surgeon to avoid making the longterm situation worse. Hate to say it, but the timing of the US has been akin to a $5 an hour comic... too late, or far too early.
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Offline lukster

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« Reply #53 on: July 23, 2006, 08:47:07 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Pongo
Part of what it means to be "liberal" I guess.
You get to think what you want and aggree with a person on one issue but not on another.  


I hardly think that to be a "liberal" trait. It's more like finding agreement on one point with a person you normally despise and then trying to use that point to attack those  you think that person represents. That this is even done pretty much disproves your assertion that's it's common for a liberal to weigh individual issues.

Offline Squire

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« Reply #54 on: July 23, 2006, 09:16:02 AM »
"But I don’t believe we can use the rational of the pre-WWII isolationist and hope our oceans will protect us from the threats that we now face."

I agree, considering the threats in the nuclear age are even greater than pre WW2, its simplistic folly to pretend you can just withdraw and hope all the bad men will go away. The USA is a trading nation, and by definition, that implies national interests beyond its borders, political, military, and economic.

As for CNNs "Crossfire" ya, I miss that show (the original), what CNN has now is a bunch of Hollywood prima donas with "their shows", they all remind me of Heraldo now.

And what ever happened to Headline news? now we have Nancy Grace talking about who Scott Petersons cell mates are, ughh. Soap Operas.

:(
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Offline Eagler

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« Reply #55 on: July 23, 2006, 09:20:41 AM »
pat was a cheekbones before this and he is still a cheekbones after this ... lazs is right
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #56 on: July 23, 2006, 09:23:30 AM »
So...you liberals... Do you agree with everything ol pat said in that article and think that he set the right tone and everything?

It seems to me to be exactly the same kind of attack piece he allways does... it is just as "mean spirited" as anything else he has done.

I guess that is what most of us who are not liberals are laughing at...  For the people or policies that liberals hate... no amount of vitriol or bile is too much...   A comedian that ridicules the ones they hate is elevated to comic genius status..

It is amusing is all... and telling.

oh.. and sandie....you don't believe that we are more and more socialist every year?

lazs

Offline Sandman

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« Reply #57 on: July 23, 2006, 10:28:23 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2

oh.. and sandie....you don't believe that we are more and more socialist every year?

lazs


Not really... Your bogeyman is obviously socialism. Mine is corporatism, but that's another thread.
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Offline lazs2

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« Reply #58 on: July 23, 2006, 11:37:31 AM »
interesting....  corporatism can be socialism I suppose but....

Are you saying that the control of power by corporations is the reason that we have more and more powerful government interferance in our lives (socialism) ?

I could see your point on say seatbelts... insurance companies lobbied for that con... They used the "costs us all millions" idea on us and the politicians seeing it could increase their power went for it.   None of us ever got rebates on our insurance and healthcare... and niether item went down in cost... the government got to "enforce" the law with more police and money to fund the program.

This would be symbiotic socialism in my view between corporations and government.

I admit that it is often hard to seperate the two but....  A government with a strong constituional bent and one that is anti socialist... would never have allowed it to happen in the first place.

Corporations controling politicians is indeed a problem but... with a strong constitutional governement that was centered on individual human rights... the corporations could not have any negative effect..

lazs

Offline FUNKED1

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« Reply #59 on: July 23, 2006, 08:56:07 PM »
If corporations control the government and the government controls everything, then total corporate control is the same as total government control.  Get a helmet and VFTR.