Author Topic: Bf109 Rolls  (Read 2150 times)

Offline AKDejaVu

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Bf109 Rolls
« Reply #45 on: September 10, 2001, 01:34:00 PM »
Quote
Hacked video? hmm Dont have sound right now.
Looked fine to me however.

You see only what you want to see... To meet any requirements you deam necessary at the time.

[list=a]
  • Who filmed this?
  • Why is the person filming the tape speaking in English?
  • Why does the plane freez 2/3 through the clip, while the audio keeps streaming?
  • Why does the engine noise from the first pass keep going even though the video of the second pass has started (yep.. that "pyhsiks" that enables sound to transcend video clipping is amazing)[/list=a]

    Know the source of your data.  Know the source and collection method.

    This film neither proves nor disproves anything in regards to accurate flight models in AH or Il-2.  Any oppinion based on this film is highly distorted.  Anyone willing to accept this film as an accurate portrayal of anything is obtuse.

    AKDejaVu

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #46 on: September 10, 2001, 01:37:00 PM »
Deja..
do you think it might be a conspiracy?

Offline Westy MOL

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« Reply #47 on: September 10, 2001, 01:41:00 PM »
I'm not resorting to name calling Fscott because I've run out of anything to say or support my pov. I simply expressed in two short words that I think you've got a few screws loose seeing how every few weeks you constantly run back to these AH boards to a ridiculous toggle back and forth between "sim X...good!" and "simX...bad!" dance.

 And after stating so factually that you never saw anyone in AH fly a 109 like that have you ignired Dead Man flying's question to you?

 Hey! I can't fly a P-51 like this guy can! Whenever I do I stall, spin, black out and crash. The P-51 FM must be pOrKeD too!!!
 http://www.jfs.no/film/mustang_display_lars_ness_258kbs.wmv

   Westy

[ 09-10-2001: Message edited by: Westy MOL ]

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #48 on: September 10, 2001, 01:45:00 PM »
Quote
Deja..
do you think it might be a conspiracy?

Dunno why you'd call it a conspiracy.  

I think the film is bogus.  Anything beyond that is just people forming oppinions based on a completley bogus set of information.

AKDejaVu

Offline Possi

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« Reply #49 on: September 10, 2001, 01:47:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by AKDejaVu:


You see only what you want to see... To meet any requirements you deam necessary at the time.

[list=a]
  • Who filmed this?
  • Why is the person filming the tape speaking in English?
  • Why does the plane freez 2/3 through the clip, while the audio keeps streaming?
  • Why does the engine noise from the first pass keep going even though the video of the second pass has started (yep.. that "pyhsiks" that enables sound to transcend video clipping is amazing)[/list=a]

    Know the source of your data.  Know the source and collection method.

    This film neither proves nor disproves anything in regards to accurate flight models in AH or Il-2.  Any oppinion based on this film is highly distorted.  Anyone willing to accept this film as an accurate portrayal of anything is obtuse.

    AKDejaVu
This Video is from "Bert Hartmann" and this is his Webside
 http://www.unsere-luftwaffe.de/

highflyer

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Bf109 Rolls
« Reply #50 on: September 10, 2001, 02:04:00 PM »
hehe Deja.. are you kidding me or what?  :p

I think that it may be quite obvious that the film had been taken at differnt times. Stop/start.... play  then stop when plane is out of view and then start again. Etc..

As far as the speed of the playback, there is nothing unusual considering that if this is a small handheld with a very narrow FOV all the tracking of the aircraft will definatly seem to blur by.

Does anyone else understand what I am saying here?

 :confused:  :)

Offline AKSWulfe

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« Reply #51 on: September 10, 2001, 02:07:00 PM »
The audio matches the video exactly... problem is the video is running faster than the audio.

It isn't about starting or stopping or recording at different times. It's about the video running faster than it's audio.

No if's and's or but's... the video is faster than the audio.
-SW

Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #52 on: September 10, 2001, 02:07:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by highflyer:
Does anyone else understand what I am saying here?

Yes, and I agree with you, highflyer.

This whole fake vs. real film thing has thrown this thread way off of the point I was trying to make earlier, which is that what we see in the film in no way confirms IL-2's flight model.  In fact, the AH 109 is equally capable of pulling similar moves in a similar timeframe.  

So if, in fact, this film is doctored and sped up, then both IL-2 and AH need to rethink 109 roll rates.

-- Todd/DMF

Offline Possi

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« Reply #53 on: September 10, 2001, 02:34:00 PM »
That is so funny,the think this Movie is a Fake.
And i am a Alien to pick up Westy tonight,after that a big Invasion on USA with all my Alienfriends....we get you all out there  :)

Oh the Invasionufos is a Bf109G-6  :p

Offline Redwing

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« Reply #54 on: September 10, 2001, 02:35:00 PM »
Maybe there's just a slight language problem between you guys and Possi... so I'm gonna try in his native language.


Possi:
Es wurde schon ungefähr 10 Mal gesagt: Wir verkehren auf diesen Foren weil das hier ein Spiel ist, welches UNS Spaß macht und welches wir für so gut befinden, dass wir bereit sind monatlich Geld dafür zu bezahlen. Deine ständigen Versuche unser Spiel schlechtzureden gehen nicht nur mir ziemlich auf die Nerven.

Wie wärs wenn du einfach auf die IL2 Foren gehst und da deinen Spaß hast. Aber lass uns bitte auch unseren. Dankeschön.

Aber um das Thema dieses Threads kurz aufzugreifen: Ich und die meisten anderen hier geben nunmal mehr auf Zahlen als ein Flugmodell nach "Gefühl" und basierend auf einem ruckligen Videoclip. Und ja, wir geben hier auch mehr auf Zahlen als auf das was Leute erzählen, die damals die Maschinen geflogen sind.
Vor ein paar Monaten hat hier jemand ein Interview mit einem P47 Piloten gepostet, darin wurde gesagt, dass die P47 eine höhere Rollrate hatte als die 109 und die 190. Blödsinn, trotzdem beharrte der Mann darauf. Folge: Menschen können sich irren, besonders wenn etwas 50 Jahre her ist. Zudem haben diese Leute die Maschinen im Kampf bewegt. Das sind nicht dieselben Bedingungen wie bei einem richtigen Testflug, wie SeaWulfe schon geschrieben hat, es gibt Berichte wie Fw190 Maschinen eine engere Kurve geflogen sind als eine Spitfire, womöglich weil der Spitfire Pilot unerfahren war, oder einfach nicht die Muskelkraft hatte um seine Maschine so enge Kurven fliegen zu lassen, wie es möglich gewesen wäre.

Egal, du wirst mir sowieso nicht zustimmen. Also lass uns einfach in Ruhe und verschone uns mit deinen Versuchen uns einzureden, dass unser Spiel schlecht ist. Wir haben hier Spaß, und das wirst du nicht ändern. Punkt.


Translation:
It's been repeated ike 10 times, the guys here are frequenting this forum because WE are having fun in this sim, and we consider it good enough to pay to play, so stop trying to convince us that our game sucks.

Go to the IL2 BBS and have fun there, just leave us alone and let us have our fun here. Thanks.

Back on topic of this thread:
Most of us indeed prefer numbers and figures rather than "feel" and a 15 sec movieclip to argue about the accuracy of a flight model. And we also prefer numbers and figures over real life accounts by pilots who flew in the war.
A couple of months back someone posted an interview with a well known P47 pilot. He kept mentioning that his P47 could outroll both the 109 and the 190. There's no proof for that in ANY test ever done, still he kept insisting that it's been that way.
People can be wrong, especially when talking about things that happened 50 years ago. Also, these men flew their machines under combat conditions which can in no way be compared to testflight conditions. As SeaWulfe said there're reports of 190s turning inside Spitfires, possibly because the Spitfire pilot was on his first combat mission or just didn't have the physical abilities to turn his plane as fast as it could have.

But because you're not going to agree anyway, just leave us alone with your lame attempts to convince us that AH sucks, we're having fun here, period.

Offline Vulcan

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« Reply #55 on: September 10, 2001, 02:36:00 PM »
This film HASN'T been altered from what I can see (trust me Deja).

However, this 109 doesn't do anything amazing, it does a rudder assisted roll - almost a snap roll. And thats all.

I use the same technique to get better roll rates in the tiffie (which in AH ARE spot on according to all the text I've checked).

If you do this in AH you'll get the same result.

This video proves nothing except that Possi has no idea what he is talking about. Nice video sure, but an almost-snap roll is not what test data is based on. And theres no way in hell you can accurately time the roll.

Sorry but no cigar. Next cheerleader please.

Offline rosco-

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« Reply #56 on: September 10, 2001, 02:40:00 PM »
This 109 is porked that 109 is porked, the film is edited, no it isnt edited...

 Who gives a rats butt?

  :)

Offline Dead Man Flying

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« Reply #57 on: September 10, 2001, 02:47:00 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Possi:
Oh the Invasionufos is a Bf109G-6   :p

So now you've edited your first message to turn it from a 109G-2 into a 109G-6?  Too bad you forgot to change the name of the link to the film.  Be sure you change that too next time.

-- Todd/DMF

Offline Westy MOL

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« Reply #58 on: September 10, 2001, 03:07:00 PM »
"That is so funny,the think this Movie is a Fake. And i am a Alien to pick up Westy tonight"

 <shrug> I never said the clip is a fake. I think you're ability to surmise performance figures from it is ludicrous. I also think you post in the manner you do for attention. I have the time so I oblige.

 As for picking me up tonight? Wear your best dress, red lipstick and ask to see Bubba when you're at the gate.

 Westy

Offline AKDejaVu

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« Reply #59 on: September 10, 2001, 03:11:00 PM »
I never said this film was hacked.

Let me put it in very simple terms:

THE VIDEO PLAYS BACK FASTER THAN THE AUDIO.

So.. lets take an internet movie from an airshow that doesn't even have the video and audio sinked at the same rate and use it to judge an aircraft's rollrate.

Better yet.. let's use it to argue with each other about it.  Even better... let's argue that AH can do that too.

Sheesh people.  It's a fricking airshow.  Think about what a pilot is going to be doing with his vintage WW2 plane at 2000 feet above the ground.  Do you think it's going to be maximum anything?
 
Here's an idea... the plane is actually rolling slower than the video indicates.  The transfer to quicktime (and compression) somehow screwed up the timing on the video and it plays back faster.  This makes the plane look like it is rolling faster than it actually is.  Is it rolling at a speed close to its maximum rate after accelerating the video?  Maybe... but fastfowarding the tape does not mean it can actually roll that fast.

 :rolleyes:

AKDejaVu