Author Topic: The Turning Point  (Read 678 times)

Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6128
The Turning Point
« Reply #15 on: July 30, 2006, 10:25:49 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by xrtoronto
Condem Israel? With all my conviction.  


Like you wouldn't do that anyway, regardless of what happened or what they did. Unless they stood there with their hands in their pockets while Hezbollah slaughtered them.
"I haven't seen Berlin yet, from the ground or the air, and I plan on doing both, BEFORE the war is over."

SaVaGe


Offline Bronk

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9044
The Turning Point
« Reply #16 on: July 30, 2006, 10:37:41 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by xrtoronto
They may have put kids there, but the Israeli aim has been less accurate this past couple days.

As apposed to unguided rockets?

 A few days ago, they bombed the UN post that had been thre since 1958, killing 4. The UN pulls out all other UN staff and yesterday, IDF fired on the UN marked vehicles again, while trying to escape, but this time they only wounded the personel.

lemme see now I'm a hezbollah freedom fighter that doesn't want to get hit with a bomb what to do... I know paint a big blue UN on the top of my truck. Those silly Jews will never suspect that.


 Today, they kill all these women and children. All three incidents were 'accidents' of coarse. (just like the last time in Qana 10 years ago when they bombed another UN site killing more than a 100 civilians hiding in the basement to escape death - oh, that was another 'accident'.) The family last month on the beach, 7 killed by IDF (5 children) - another accident. *raises eyebrows*

 
We at hezzbollah would never ever place our mobile rocket launchers near a know air raid shelter.  Xt get a grip this is standard practice for hezbollah

Condem Israel? With all my conviction.  But, it's really a moot point now. Israel has lost global support from everyone but the US

See the Mel Gibson drunk thread how some like to point at others as antisemitic ... while posting there own  .


*shrugs*




Bronk
« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 10:40:13 PM by Bronk »
See Rule #4

Offline xrtoronto

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4219
The Turning Point
« Reply #17 on: July 30, 2006, 10:38:13 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Maverick
But hezbollah is okey dokie with you then?



What I'm saying is the entire Middle East (and including India) is in an enigmatic conflict. Just because someone is critical of someone (or something) it doesn't mean that they are against that someone or something. If I had a solution to all this, it would win me the Nobel Prize.

If you read some of the Israeli blogs, there are Israelis who feel exactly the way I feel. I stand firmly by what I have said.

Offline xrtoronto

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4219
The Turning Point
« Reply #18 on: July 30, 2006, 10:40:56 PM »
ah..there it is..Bronk plays the 'anti-semetic' card.

predictable, lame

My friend who went to Israel last summer with his Rabbi and 40 others....I am meeting him tomorrow at 2:30 for a late lunch. I will tell him all about you.:)

Offline Bronk

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9044
The Turning Point
« Reply #19 on: July 30, 2006, 10:45:47 PM »
And now the I have jew friends defence .

Even lamer .


Stop making excuses for hezbollah .
 Because their actions are inexcusable... or do you condone young muslims blowing up civilians in pizza parlors?


Bronk
« Last Edit: July 30, 2006, 10:50:34 PM by Bronk »
See Rule #4

Offline ASTAC

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1654
The Turning Point
« Reply #20 on: July 30, 2006, 10:48:51 PM »
This whole innocent civilian thing really ticks me off....sure civilians shouldn't be targeted on purpose, but to expect Israel to tie one hand behind their back just to not hit civilians is stupid.

It's a war zone..and you can't tell me that the entire poplace of a village wouldn't be aware that Hezbolla is hiding there...leave town if you don't want to get killed..oh but wait you say Israel bombed the roads...has the world gotten to the point that just because you don't have a freakin car, you can't go anywhere..walk your arse out of town..go live in a tent for awhile or something.

One other thing..someone in here mentioned that Lebanon is almost 1/2 Christian...like the crime is worse that they are killing Christians too...do any of ya'll think that the JEWISH state of Israel care if they are killing Christians or Muslims? We are all Gentiles in their eyes.

I say let the rest of the world stay out of it..Those hate filled countries over there have been trying to erase Israel for years..They should be thanking Allah or God or Bog or whoever that Israel has had some restraint and not used the end all weapon that none of their enemies have yet.

__________________
That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety

Offline xrtoronto

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4219
The Turning Point
« Reply #21 on: July 30, 2006, 11:01:59 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Bronk
do you condone young muslims blowing up civilians in pizza parlors?


Bronk


bronk, i think you're emotions have got the better of you

anything is better than talking to you right now...so...I'm gonna get a cup of coffee and some raspberry swirl cake and watch a little TV before going to bed. It's just turned midnight here. Nighty, night.

Offline Bronk

  • Persona Non Grata
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9044
The Turning Point
« Reply #22 on: July 30, 2006, 11:11:00 PM »
Nice evade .
Don't answer the question just dance around it a bit... It'll make you feel better.


Bronk
See Rule #4

Offline hacksaw1

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 219
The Turning Point
« Reply #23 on: July 31, 2006, 08:34:35 AM »
Turning Point?

I'd say only for this latest round, possibly.

What would bring peace to the region? Israel's withdrawal to '67 lines, or '49 ceasefire lines, or '47 UN partition lines? I doubt if any withdrawal to any of these lines will ever bring a "durable and lasting peace."

One of the continuing demands of Palestinians is the return of all Palestinian refugees to areas including those within the '47 UN demarcation lines. But even those on the left of the left in Israel like Yossi Baylin reject the idea. So no matter what happens in the near term, no progress for "peace" is likely so long as Palestinian leaders continue to hold on to the refugee card. From what I understand that is mainly what torpedoed Barak's offer for peace at Camp David, even though Nobel Prize winner for peace Arafat didn't even offer a counter proposal.

I have a friend whose parents fled Iraq in the early '50s. Jews had lived in Mesopotamia for 2.500 years or more, since the days the books of Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel were written. There were many hundreds of thousands of these Middle Eastern Jews who left their homes as "refugees" and were eventually absorbed by Israel. But of all the many displaced people groups of the '40s, in Europe and the Middle East, who were accorded the title "refugee" the displaced Palestinians were not absorbed by the local populations. Instead they were given domicile in camps. That's 60 years of waiting in a "refugee" camp, including in PA controlled Gaza, after the Oslo Accords.

Israel recognized a former terrorist organization, the PLO, as a legitimate partner for peace on the basis of that organization's pledge to recognize the legitimacy of the state of Israel and renounce calls for Israel's destruction. The Palestinian National Charter of the PLO at that time contained specific articles that called for the destruction of Israel by armed conflict. An explicit provision of the Oslo accords of 1993 between Israel and the PLO was the PLO's assurance that those articles would be removed or changed. Though promises were made that they would be changed, to this day the articles in question remain in place. That's not a reassuring sign. I personally don't see how Hamas or Hezbollah, both religiously motivated, will be more agreeable to the existence of Israel when the secular PLO has been unable to do so completely.

It also seems notable to me that just prior to the recent events on Israel's borders, Iran and its quest for nuclear capability was on the frontpage. But of course Israel making war is sure to steal all headlines. Iran denies the holocaust and publically threatens Israel with complete annihilation.  

On the other hand it's worth mentioning again that Egypt signed peace accords recognizing Israel in 1979, as did Jordan in 1995. And no civil war erupted in Israel from Jerusalem's forced removal of Israelis from settlements in Gaza, settlements that Israeli governments right and left had sponsored. So Israel is not obstinately against any approach for peace.

Regarding recent events, xrtoronto also asked in another thread if anyone remembers the Liberty attack, no doubt wanting to throw that event into the mix of current affairs to lead to more bad taste in the mouths of readers here towards Israel. Well why didn't you ask about this one too?

April 17, 2002:  Four Canadian soldiers - Sgt. Marc D. Leger, Cpl. Ainsworth Dyer, Pte. Richard Green and Pte. Nathan Smith -- were killed and eight wounded near Kandahar, Afghanistan. They were on a night-time, live-fire exercise when a U.S. jet fighter pilot mistook them for enemy personnel and bombed them.

Or this one.

1988 the US Navy missile ship Vincennes downs an Iranian civilian airliner.
 
But similar incidents couldn't be a horrible mistake when Israelis are pulling the trigger. It must be premeditated.
 
I wonder if all Canadian forces such as are operating in Afghanistan for Operation Enduring Freedom have never injured or killed any innocent Afghanis. I certainly hope they have not. But weapons of war are designed for maximum effect, sometimes unwanted.

May 23, 2006: Afghanistan's President Hamid Karzai calls for an investigation after U.S. commanders call in air strikes during a gun battle with Taliban fighters in a Panjwai district village during the late hours of May 21 and the early hours of May 22. At least 16 civilians died. Canadian political leaders admitted such incidents made it more difficult to win the "hearts and minds" of the Afghan people.

March 14, 2006: Canadian troops shoot and kill an Afghan man in a taxi that had ventured too close to their convoy. As compensation, the man's family asks to be moved to Canada and educated. The military reports firing warning shots in 10 incidents in the previous several months.

The tenor of xrtoronto and others is that Israel could care less about civilian casualties. What emerges about people like xrtoronto is the same double-standard approach that disqualifies one from serious discussion.

Offline Suave

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2950
The Turning Point
« Reply #24 on: August 01, 2006, 08:27:36 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by hacksaw1
Turning Point?

I'd say only for this latest round, possibly.

What would bring peace to the region? Israel's withdrawal to '67 lines, or '49 ceasefire lines, or '47 UN partition lines? I doubt if any withdrawal to any of these lines will ever bring a "durable and lasting peace."

One of the continuing demands of Palestinians is the return of all Palestinian refugees to areas including those within the '47 UN demarcation lines. But even those on the left of the left in Israel like Yossi Baylin reject the idea. So no matter what happens in the near term, no progress for "peace" is likely so long as Palestinian leaders continue to hold on to the refugee card. From what I understand that is mainly what torpedoed Barak's offer for peace at Camp David, even though Nobel Prize winner for peace Arafat didn't even offer a counter proposal.

I have a friend whose parents fled Iraq in the early '50s. Jews had lived in Mesopotamia for 2.500 years or more, since the days the books of Jeremiah, Ezekiel and Daniel were written. There were many hundreds of thousands of these Middle Eastern Jews who left their homes as "refugees" and were eventually absorbed by Israel. But of all the many displaced people groups of the '40s, in Europe and the Middle East, who were accorded the title "refugee" the displaced Palestinians were not absorbed by the local populations. Instead they were given domicile in camps. That's 60 years of waiting in a "refugee" camp, including in PA controlled Gaza, after the Oslo Accords.

Israel recognized a former terrorist organization, the PLO, as a legitimate partner for peace on the basis of that organization's pledge to recognize the legitimacy of the state of Israel and renounce calls for Israel's destruction. The Palestinian National Charter of the PLO at that time contained specific articles that called for the destruction of Israel by armed conflict. An explicit provision of the Oslo accords of 1993 between Israel and the PLO was the PLO's assurance that those articles would be removed or changed. Though promises were made that they would be changed, to this day the articles in question remain in place. That's not a reassuring sign. I personally don't see how Hamas or Hezbollah, both religiously motivated, will be more agreeable to the existence of Israel when the secular PLO has been unable to do so completely.

It also seems notable to me that just prior to the recent events on Israel's borders, Iran and its quest for nuclear capability was on the frontpage. But of course Israel making war is sure to steal all headlines. Iran denies the holocaust and publically threatens Israel with complete annihilation.  

On the other hand it's worth mentioning again that Egypt signed peace accords recognizing Israel in 1979, as did Jordan in 1995. And no civil war erupted in Israel from Jerusalem's forced removal of Israelis from settlements in Gaza, settlements that Israeli governments right and left had sponsored. So Israel is not obstinately against any approach for peace.

Regarding recent events, xrtoronto also asked in another thread if anyone remembers the Liberty attack, no doubt wanting to throw that event into the mix of current affairs to lead to more bad taste in the mouths of readers here towards Israel. Well why didn't you ask about this one too?

April 17, 2002:  Four Canadian soldiers - Sgt. Marc D. Leger, Cpl. Ainsworth Dyer, Pte. Richard Green and Pte. Nathan Smith -- were killed and eight wounded near Kandahar, Afghanistan. They were on a night-time, live-fire exercise when a U.S. jet fighter pilot mistook them for enemy personnel and bombed them.

Or this one.

1988 the US Navy missile ship Vincennes downs an Iranian civilian airliner.
 
But similar incidents couldn't be a horrible mistake when Israelis are pulling the trigger. It must be premeditated.
 
I wonder if all Canadian forces such as are operating in Afghanistan for Operation Enduring Freedom have never injured or killed any innocent Afghanis. I certainly hope they have not. But weapons of war are designed for maximum effect, sometimes unwanted.

May 23, 2006: Afghanistan's President Hamid Karzai calls for an investigation after U.S. commanders call in air strikes during a gun battle with Taliban fighters in a Panjwai district village during the late hours of May 21 and the early hours of May 22. At least 16 civilians died. Canadian political leaders admitted such incidents made it more difficult to win the "hearts and minds" of the Afghan people.

March 14, 2006: Canadian troops shoot and kill an Afghan man in a taxi that had ventured too close to their convoy. As compensation, the man's family asks to be moved to Canada and educated. The military reports firing warning shots in 10 incidents in the previous several months.

The tenor of xrtoronto and others is that Israel could care less about civilian casualties. What emerges about people like xrtoronto is the same double-standard approach that disqualifies one from serious discussion.
Hacksaw? More like Hammer, because you just nailed it.

Offline eagl

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6769
The Turning Point
« Reply #25 on: August 01, 2006, 08:39:31 AM »
Where's the outrage over the car bombs blowing up civilian marketplaces in Iraq?  There were no hizbollah terrorists in those markets lofting rockets at anyone, they just blew them up for giggedy giggles.  But blow up one building in an area used to launch rockets at Israel, and call out the outrage soundbites!

Whackos are killing dozens of true innocents in Iraq EVERY WEEK, and there is no outrage.  The outrage is false, pure and simple.  They want a sound bite and they know that outrage, even as blatantly hypocritcal and fabricated as this, will get on CNN.  So that's their tactic.

When will people realize that it's info warfare and propaganda at it's finest?  Goebbels and Hitler would be happy to hire these masters of propaganda, as they've done what Hitler couldn't do, make a bunch of total religious whackjobs and genocidal lunatics look like victims in the eyes of the American media.

WTG terrorist propaganda masters, applause to mainstream media for taking the truly revolutionary approach to finding the "truth" by buying into the cultural relativism that places terrorism and those who support it on a higher moral pedestal than anything else.  Because moral relativism that says it's ok for someone to blow themselves up because "that's ok in his culture" is somehow "fair" and "truthful reporting".
Everyone I know, goes away, in the end.

Offline Shuckins

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3412
The Turning Point
« Reply #26 on: August 01, 2006, 08:45:29 AM »
The following excerpt is taken from the pamphlet, "Hezbollah Military Doctrine;  Chapter 3 - Using Available Tools and the Equipment at Hand.  (Page 57.)":

"If you got civilians, you don't need no stinking body armor."

Offline WMLute

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4512
The Turning Point
« Reply #27 on: August 01, 2006, 08:48:44 AM »



Quote
Bell's book details a range of failures in Canada's establishment towards terrorism, focusing on Sikh terrorism, the Sri Lankan Tamil Tigers, Hezbollah and Hamas, and lastly al-Qaeda. Complacency, appeasement, and denial are the main themes that run through the book, written in a journalist's narrative style. What is most troubling is the lack of awareness, let alone the absence of a sense of responsibility, to victims of terrorism in other countries.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0470834633/002-7818780-4919234?v=glance&n=283155

I think that "Complacency, appeasement, and denial " hit's the nail on the head.

Turning point indeed.
"Never tell people how to do things. Tell them what to do and they will surprise you with their ingenuity."
— George Patton

Absurdum est ut alios regat, qui seipsum regere nescit

Offline lazs2

  • Radioactive Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 24886
The Turning Point
« Reply #28 on: August 01, 2006, 08:52:13 AM »
well then... maybe jordan will get angry enough to give back the land they took from the "palestinians" now?

lazs