Author Topic: Media and the Middle East.  (Read 1529 times)

Offline lukster

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Media and the Middle East.
« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2006, 11:16:37 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
The programme this thread is about is an attempt to show the other side of the story, the one that doesn't get shown in the American media (and the views of Americans on this issue seem to suggest the programme is correct, and that view doesn't get presented). You won't get far countering propaganda with a balanced film. After all, is that what the Israeli government does, present a balanced view of the Palestinians?


Just because there are opposing points of view does not mean the "truth" is in the middle. In the case of the Palestinians vs Israel there are many truths. Same goes for the rest of the world. One "truth" for the Islamic facists is that the west would, or is, destroying their fundamentalist way of life. Exposure to the west's lifestyle has, and is, subverting many from the true practice of their faith. This is a "truth".

If you're of the western philosphy persuasion and believe in some form of democracy and freedom for all then you will likely have a different perspective on this "truth" than say a religious zealot who places obedience to God above all else.

Offline WhiteHawk

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« Reply #61 on: August 05, 2006, 03:46:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by DREDIOCK
Rolex,

Thanks for posting the video.
The O'club has been on the dryer side of bland as of late IMO
Made for great discussion material which the O'cub has been sorely missing for a while.

Whatever your stance.
Was a fun argument everyone


I your ability to step outside of the box.  I know we disagree on everything else, but im with ya on this one.

Offline WhiteHawk

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« Reply #62 on: August 05, 2006, 03:50:13 PM »
like I said before, its a conquer or be conquered scenario.  Just like the white man and the indians.  If we leave the indian alone, he will scalp our women and children.  The only choices are leave the new world or conquer the indians and take his land.  The whole argument here is how the isrealis and palestinians present thier case.  Niether takes blame for the murder of the children.

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #63 on: August 05, 2006, 10:52:11 PM »
Nashwan,

I think that on a couple of your rebuttals to my statements you're basically splitting hairs.

Frankly, I found the video to be a very slick presentation of the same old tired claims and distortions made by the radical Palestinians and their anti-Israeli, radical, left-wing American apologists.

The film is propaganda, designed to portray the Israelis in a bad light.  Scenes of brutality by Israeli soldiers are presented with no background in which to frame the incident.  The commentators frame it for us.  We're just supposed to accept their descriptions of the causes as fact.

This is a very old yet effective trick.  Remember the famous photo of a South Vietnamese general using a pistol to blow the brains out of a North Vietnamese soldier.  That shocked the entire world.  Anti-war elements in the United States used this picture as proof of the cruelty and barbarity of the South Vietnamese government.

Many years after that incident, I read the full story of the incident that sparked that killing.  The general had been on his way to visit a close friend and his family.  The North Vietnamese regular and his squad had burst into the home of the general's friend and had massacred his entire family:  men, women, and children.   No one was spared.  The soldier was captured.  The grief stricken general pulled his pistol and shot him.

I've been gone all day so I'm too tired to summarize the information at the following web-site, so I'll just post the web-address and you can read it yourself.  It's a pro-Israeli web-site, so you can call it propaganda if you wish, but if you're willing to view the video that started this thread, then you should, in all fairness, read the official Israeli rebuttal to many of the claims made against it by radical Muslims and their Western apologists.  This site presents some facts that strike directly at some of the most common accusations made by western critics of Israeli policy.


http://www.jewishvirtuallibrary.org/jsource/myths/mf18.html#a

Regards, Shuckins

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #64 on: August 05, 2006, 11:38:37 PM »
Thanks for that link Shuckins. I hadnt seen an Israeli rebuttal to Palestinian allegations before.
Corkyjr on country jumping:
In the end you should be thankful for those players like us who switch to try and help keep things even because our willingness to do so, helps a more selfish, I want it my way player, get to fly his latewar uber ride.

Offline hacksaw1

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« Reply #65 on: August 06, 2006, 03:22:38 AM »
As relates to the title post, the photos of Adnan Hajj are now being exposed as doctored for effect. I also watched the video you linked Rolex. It comes across to me like a lot of clothes on the line on a windy day, but not too many clothes pins.

Still the bottom line was a worthy topic and ought to have been fairly treated. Not a word is said that Arafat pocketed hundreds of millions of dollars of Palestinian aid, but instead Israel is blamed for poverty. The mantra is repeated over and over that Israel has been the illegal occupier for 34 years with no mention of the 1967 six day war that brought about that state of affairs.  

Here are two links for a "counterbalance" view.

Relentless

Obsession

Nashwan says
Quote
The truth is somewhere in the middle, both sides have done many things wrong, and both are responsible for the state things are in now.

Well mate, the Peel Commission says you Brits mucked things up pretty well to get the ball rolling.

LEAGUE OF NATIONS

MANDATES

P A L E S T I N E

--------
REPORT
of the
PALESTINE ROYAL COMMISSION

presented by the Secretary of State for the Colonies
to the United Kingdom Parliament
by Command of His Britannic Majesty
(July 1937)
Distributed at the request of the United Kingdom Government.

..........

SUMMARY
_______

PART I: THE PROBLEM
Chapter I. - The Historical Background

A brief account of ancient Jewish times in Palestine, of the Arab conquest and occupation, of the dispersion of the Jews and the development of the Jewish Problem, and the growth and meaning of Zionism.

Chapter II. - The War and the Mandate

In order to obtain Arab support in the War [World War One], the British Government promised the Sherif of Mecca in 1915 that, in the event of an Allied victory, the greater part of the Arab provinces of the Turkish Empire would become independent. The Arabs understood that Palestine would be included in the sphere of independence.

In order to obtain the support of World Jewry, the British Government in 1917 issued the Balfour Declaration. The Jews understood that, if the experiment of establishing a Jewish National Home succeeded and a sufficient number of Jews went to Palestine, the National Home might develop in course of time into a Jewish State.

[Well DUH!!!!]
................

PART III: THE POSSIBILITY OF A LASTING SETTLEMENT

Chapter XX. - The Force of Circumstances

The problem of Palestine is briefly restated.

Under the stress of the World War the British Government made promises to Arabs and Jews in order to obtain their support. On the strength of those promises both parties formed certain expectations.

............................. .........................

The existing circumstances are summarized as follows.

An irrepressible conflict has arisen between two national communities within the narrow bounds of one small country. There is no common ground between them. Their national aspirations are incompatible. The Arabs desire to revive the traditions of the Arab golden age. The Jews desire to show what they can achieve when restored to the land in which the Jewish nation was born. Neither of the two national ideals permits of combination in the service of a single State.

The conflict has grown steadily more bitter since 1920 and the process will continue. Conditions inside Palestine especially the systems of education, are strengthening the national sentiment of the two peoples. The bigger and more prosperous they grow the greater will be their political ambitions, and the conflict is aggravated by the uncertainty of the future. Who in the end will govern Palestine?" it is asked. Meanwhile, the external factors will continue to operate with increasing force. On the one hand in less than three years' time Syria and the Lebanon will attain their national sovereignty, and the claim of the Palestinian Arabs to share in the freedom of all Asiatic Arabia will thus be fortified. On the other hand the hardships and anxieties of the Jews in Europe are not likely to grow less and the appeal to the good faith and humanity of the British people will lose none of its force.

...........................

Chapter XXII. - A Plan of Partition

While the Commission would not be expected to embark on the further protracted inquiry which would be needed for working out a scheme of Partition in full detail, it would be idle to put forward the principle of Partition and not to give it any concrete shape. Clearly it must be shown that an actual plan can be devised which meets the main requirements of the case.

............................. ........

10. Exchange of Land and Population

If Partition is to be effective in promoting a final settlement it must mean more than drawing a frontier and establishing two States. Sooner or later there should be a transfer of land and, as far as possible, an exchange of population.

.........................

Anybody interested in the Arab-Israel conflict might want to take a few moments to read the Peel Commission's report of 1937 as to the cause of the riots in Mandate Palestine the previous year. The report makes a number of recommendations and is candid about the origins of the problems.

Among other interesting recommendations are land transfer and population transfer, based on the successful population transfer of no less than some 1,300,000 Greeks and some 400,000 Turks after the Greco-Turkish War of 1922, as well as a two state solution.

Peel Commission
« Last Edit: August 06, 2006, 03:43:25 AM by hacksaw1 »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #66 on: August 06, 2006, 09:37:49 AM »
shukins... I don't really know why my reply got moderated but I have the same view as you that nashwan is splitting hairs.

I asked those who think the jews are to blame who they would rather live next to.. the jews or a fundamentalist muslim one run by hez-ebola.

I then asked em what their solution was.   What is the solution?

There needs to be a buffer zone and the jews should not be allowed to settle it either.

As for kalifornia... I would not mind if kalifornia were split in half... it has been discussed many times and makes sense...  It would be good to make it two seperate states opperating under two seperate state governments.

lazs

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #67 on: August 06, 2006, 02:10:37 PM »
Well Lasz, they don't have a solution...at least, not a workable one.  

Except, possibly, that the Israelis give up even more land, grant unrealistic "rights" to the "oppressed" Palestinians which jeopardize their own security, removal of the security fence, a drawdown of Israeli military forces, reduction of troop presence at crossing points between Palestinian areas and Israeli settlements.

The following is from an article by Bradley R. Gitz in today's Arkansas-Democrat Gazette:

"Israel is, consequently, caught in the ultimate Catch-22 of warfare:  It cannot fully use its massive firepower from the air against Hezbollah for fear of killing Lebanese civilians, but it cannot fight with full fury on the ground for fear of both killing civilians and suffering casualties on its own side that sap morale and increase anti-war sentiment back in Tel Aviv.

In the end, Israel has an obligation and moral duty to fight back against its enemies, but is constrained by various moral considerations from fighting back effectively.

The essential decency of Western civilization is our greatest source of strength and what most clearly differentiates us from the savages we fight against.  But Israelis could, perhaps, be excused for wondering if those of us far removed from Hezbollah's rockets are going a bit too far in indulging our moral vanity at their expense."


Regards, Shuckins

Offline Nashwan

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« Reply #68 on: August 06, 2006, 06:15:39 PM »
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The film is propaganda, designed to portray the Israelis in a bad light.


Agreed. But I'd say most of what people in the US, and to a lesser extent the UK, see about the Israel/Palestine issue is also propaganda, from the other side.

For example, if 3 people are killed in a suicide bombing in Israel, it will make the main TV news bulletins here, and probably in the US also (unless it's a very busy news day). 3 Palestinians killed by the IDF, even if they are innocent bystanders,rarely makes the news.

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Scenes of brutality by Israeli soldiers are presented with no background in which to frame the incident.


Would you expect suicide bombings to be presented with "background" to frame the incident?

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I've been gone all day so I'm too tired to summarize the information at the following web-site, so I'll just post the web-address and you can read it yourself. It's a pro-Israeli web-site, so you can call it propaganda if you wish,


It is propaganda. It's telling one side of a story. Can I point you to a more impartial site? It's the US State Department Human Rights reports, which they compile yearly, on every country in the world:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/hrrpt/2005/61690.htm

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This site presents some facts that strike directly at some of the most common accusations made by western critics of Israeli policy.


Presenting some facts doesn't give a true picture. To give a made up example:
"My neighbour slashed a woman with a scalpel yesterday, leaving her needing 20 stiches", makes him sound like a nutter, saying he's a doctor and he performed a caesarian on her makes it sound very different.

One side of a story never gives you an accurate picture.

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Well mate, the Peel Commission says you Brits mucked things up pretty well to get the ball rolling.


I think the British, so used to the good old British compromise, underestimated the determination of both sides to have it all, and the resistance to compromise. The original Balfour declaration, after all, called for a Jewish homeland in Palestine, and nothing prejudicing the rights of non Jews already there.

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Well Lasz, they don't have a solution...at least, not a workable one.


There is of course a solution, it's called "the two state solution". It's what just about every country in the world supports. Implementing it is something else entirely.

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Except, possibly, that the Israelis give up even more land,


The land Israel is supposed to "give up" is that taken in 1967, that even Israel itself does not claim is part of Israel. How can they be "giving up" that which they say is not theirs?

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grant unrealistic "rights" to the "oppressed" Palestinians which jeopardize their own security


The "rights" Israel has to give to the Palestinians is independence.

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removal of the security fence,


A security fence is Israel's right. But it has to be on the border. It would be a lot more effective on the border, too. As the military historian Martin Van Creveld points out, the problem with the current wall is that Israel is on both sides of it. What he didn't add, probably because the current convoluted route wasn't proposed then, is that the Palestinians are also on both sides of it.

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a drawdown of Israeli military forces,


I've never seen that suggested as part of a peace plan. The size of the Israeli army is up to Israel.

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reduction of troop presence at crossing points between Palestinian areas and Israeli settlements.


Reduction of Israeli settlements. Then you won't need the army to guard them ;)

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The essential decency of Western civilization is our greatest source of strength and what most clearly differentiates us from the savages we fight against. But Israelis could, perhaps, be excused for wondering if those of us far removed from Hezbollah's rockets are going a bit too far in indulging our moral vanity at their expense."


The biggest problem with Israeli tactics is that they don't work. Collective punishment of the Lebanese population has seen them rally round Hezbollah, because they are seen as the only ones who can stand up to Israel. Bombing of Lebanon has seen Hezbollah rocketing Israel, with 40 Israeli civilians killed.

What began as a border incident with 10 Israeli soldiers killed and captured has turned into 100 Israelis dead, over a thousand Lebanese dead, Israel's reputation in the world tarnished even more, Hezbollah's raised amongst the Arabs.

Look back to the news in the first couple of days of this. Hezbollah was being criticised throughout the Arab world. Israel has gone from being the victim to the agressor, and all because once again they have chosen precisely the wrong way of going about things.

You don't win a war against guerillas with overwhelming military force. It just doesn't work.

When Aerial Sharon came to power in Israel in 2000, promising to "let the IDF win", 4 Israeli civilians had been killed in Israel during the current intifada. By the time he left power, the figure was over 400. And Israel was seen as the bad guy.

What is the point of supporting tactics that don't just not work, but actually make the situation worse?
« Last Edit: August 06, 2006, 06:17:53 PM by Nashwan »

Offline lazs2

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« Reply #69 on: August 07, 2006, 08:40:59 AM »
nashwan... you admit that the peice is a pure smear piece of propoganda but defend it by saying that all our news here (which you have no idea about) is just the same.... propoganda...

that we have no idea how many lebonese have been killed?  that we don't see the lebonese dead?   you have no idea what we see obviously.

You say that suicide bombers are not portrayed fairly?  taken out of context?  What context?  that they are insane?  we allready figured that out.  

you have no solution.  you admit as such but... you are against the solution that the people who have to live there come up with.   They don't feel that your solution will prevent terrorists blowing their families up in the market place.  I don't either.

If a strong hand did not work then the sadman could never have ruled iraq.

lazs