Intelligence failure led to strike on Israeli Ship Hanit

[Elfie]

Originally posted by Excel1
It's a mistake to assume that everyone that has an opinion that is differant to yours has formed it through ignorance or bias. If anything, judging by some of the posts in this thread and others the reverse is true.

You're implied assumption is wrong.

While Israel has used preemptive strikes in the past, they are usually responding to attacks on them by Muslim militants.

I am biased against the Muslim militants. Why? Their stated goal is the complete destruction of Israel. They use terrorist tactics in their attempt to bend Israel to their will. They deliberately target cafes, nightclubs, busses etc with suicide bombers. They deliberately launch rockets into populated areas with the intent of killing as many civilians as possible.

When Israel does give concessions (Think Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip) what do the militants do? Attack the IDF as they are leaving. They rejoice whenever they kill a Jew, civilian or military.

I am not biased against the civilians on either side. You know, those people that are just trying to live their daily lives just like you and me. I cant find words to express the sadness and horror I feel when I see pictures of the dead civilians on either side.

[Elfie]

Seagoon, while that is truly awful. Most people could care less if one Christian or one million Christians are murdered. Someone will probably post and declare your information to be grossly inaccurate as well.

Just the fact that thousands are being killed fills me with a sense of outrage.

That whole situation would only be news worthy if it was reversed.

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by Elfie
Kinda sad how it wasnt even mentioned here in the US. This thread was the first I heard of the Cambodian ship being sunk.

I've been thinking about that incident. These were radar guided missles and as far as I know, those missles have to be locked on to a target and then fired. Which would mean Hezbollah deliberately targeted both ships in order to score hits.

The other option is if the missles can be fired and allowed to search for targets on their own. If that was the case, then these missles were fired in a very negligent manner imo.

Not sure what equipment they use to fire their missiles. If they had 2 bleeps on the radar they ___could___ have selected the wrong one when they locked on if the reflective sizes were similar.

Somehow i doubt they could have used radar to find their targets without the israeli ship picking up that radar on their ESM gear. Maybe they activated the radar on the missile and fired it "blind" in the general direction of the warship on the horizon and the missiles search radar locked on to the wrong one. I have no idea how the radar on that iranian missiles works.

They could also have deliberatly targeted both, or fired a second missile at the israeli ship after they foun out that they had hit the wrong target. If im not mistaken the civilian ship was the first to be hit. There are indications that it was Iranian soliders that fired the missiles, and they have no beef with cambodians do they?


There are many possible scenarios.

[Wolfala]

Originally posted by Nilsen
Not sure what equipment they use to fire their missiles. If they had 2 bleeps on the radar they ___could___ have selected the wrong one when they locked on if the reflective sizes were similar.

Somehow i doubt they could have used radar to find their targets without the israeli ship picking up that radar on their ESM gear. Maybe they activated the radar on the missile and fired it "blind" in the general direction of the warship on the horizon and the missiles search radar locked on to the wrong one. I have no idea how the radar on that iranian missiles works.

They could also have deliberatly targeted both, or fired a second missile at the israeli ship after they foun out that they had hit the wrong target. If im not mistaken the civilian ship was the first to be hit. There are indications that it was Iranian soliders that fired the missiles, and they have no beef with cambodians do they?


There are many possible scenarios.

There are many ways they can be launched - but seeing as the Corvette was within visual range of the shore being 13km off the coast, odds are it was struck first.

A lot of times you don't need an exact location. As you pointed out, if you get 2 or 3 radar sweeps of the ocean, you can just work off a primary return and you can work up a usable plot for where to send the missiles in a dumbfire mode to go active later down the line. Sorta what the AIM-54 and AMRAAM did with an INS to a predetermined point and then go hot looking for something looking like a target.

There's ten thousand ways it could've gone down, but seeing all of the dumbfire rockets landing inside Israeli territory now, I don't think they were aiming for accuracy as much as just hit anything and hope its the right target.

Remembering the lessons from Gulf War 1 and Kosovo, if you turned on yr radar for anytime, you became a HARM magnet. So I think they just caught a visual of the Corvette, launched in a spray and pray - got 1 hit, and 1 innocent way the hell out to sea.

Wolf

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by Wolfala
Remembering the lessons from Gulf War 1 and Kosovo, if you turned on yr radar for anytime, you became a HARM magnet. So I think they just caught a visual of the Corvette, launched in a spray and pray - got 1 hit, and 1 innocent way the hell out to sea.

Wolf

yup.

If they set the radar to activate at a sertain range and fired the missile in that direction the corvette could have been too close so that the missile activated beyond the corvette and hit the closest ship after activation. They then recalculated and fired again causing it to hit. They could have set the heading of the missile wrong too.

The data on this incident and the specs on how that iranian missile works are too few to rule out a number of different options. They could have even deliberatly targeted the merchant vessel beliving it was an israeli ship.

[Elfie]

Interesting points, thanks guys. I agree, the possibilities are numerous. I would like to know how it went down, but kinda doubt we will ever find out.

[straffo]

Originally posted by Wolfala
Yea - funny how that never popped up in the news.

Use a real news service.

It's easy to have Reuter and AFP feed for free.

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by Elfie
Interesting points, thanks guys. I agree, the possibilities are numerous. I would like to know how it went down, but kinda doubt we will ever find out.

If it was Iranian soldiers that fired the missiles, they will never admit that it was them so they wont tell the world what happened. If it was Hezbollah then what they may eventually say about it will have to be taken with a "grain" of salt so Im afraid you are right.

Even if someone has  tracked the missiles they will not now the intentions of those who fired it.

I doubt that they intetionally targeted the cambodian vessel tho if they knew it was cambodian. That would not even make sense for a terrorist to do. Nothing to gain and not a good PR stunt even for their supporters.

[bozon]

Originally posted by Nilsen
I doubt that they intetionally targeted the cambodian vessel tho if they knew it was cambodian. That would not even make sense for a terrorist to do. Nothing to gain and not a good PR stunt even for their supporters.

apparently even terrorists have collateral damage.

The ship was tracked by Lebanon army coastal radars. IDF policy not to attack Lebanon army is the reason these radars were operational. After the corvet was hit IAF attacked the coastal radars in one of the only attacks on Lebanon army installations.
The hits on the radars are halfway through the film:
http://www1.idf.il/SIP_STORAGE/DOVER/files/6/54486.wmv

[Nilsen]

Originally posted by bozon
apparently even terrorists have collateral damage.

The ship was tracked by Lebanon army coastal radars. IDF policy not to attack Lebanon army is the reason these radars were operational. After the corvet was hit IAF attacked the coastal radars in one of the only attacks on Lebanon army installations.
The hits on the radars are halfway through the film:
http://www1.idf.il/SIP_STORAGE/DOVER/files/6/54486.wmv

yup.. Israeli cities and military are thier targets, so a ship from Cambodia would be collateral damage.

Ill check the link when I get home. The speed on my "holiday line" is crappy.

Are you army, navy or airforce?

[Excel1]

Originally posted by Elfie
You're implied assumption is wrong.

While Israel has used preemptive strikes in the past, they are usually responding to attacks on them by Muslim militants.

I am biased against the Muslim militants. Why? Their stated goal is the complete destruction of Israel. They use terrorist tactics in their attempt to bend Israel to their will. They deliberately target cafes, nightclubs, busses etc with suicide bombers. They deliberately launch rockets into populated areas with the intent of killing as many civilians as possible.

When Israel does give concessions (Think Israel's withdrawal from the Gaza Strip) what do the militants do? Attack the IDF as they are leaving. They rejoice whenever they kill a Jew, civilian or military.

I am not biased against the civilians on either side. You know, those people that are just trying to live their daily lives just like you and me. I cant find words to express the sadness and horror I feel when I see pictures of the dead civilians on either side.

I'm biased against muslim terrorists as well, who wouldn't be? They're are mad headed sobs that imo should be rounded up and dropped in the nearest black hole. If only it were that easy. You misunderstand me if you think I'm suggesting that to display support for Israel in this situation is wrong, far from it, anything but. I support Israel  and have done ever since I was a kid when I figured out what the 6 day war was all about. But that does not mean I am going to agree with every method or action the IDF take. Because I don't. Imo the IDF's initial assault on hizbolloh in southern Lebanon was too harsh on civilians.  Unfortunately this fight in Lebanon probably won't solve the worst of Israel's problems with it's neighbours, it's just another chapter in a saga lasting decades.  Things need to be kept in context

Cheers

[Elfie]

I dont necessarily agree with everything Israel has done either. Israel is run by humans, and every human makes mistakes, I understand that. I do try to look at the whole picture and usually you can see their motivations for their actions and the vast majority of the time I can understand the *why* behind those actions.

When it comes to civilian casualties, I try to put that into perspective. During WWII millions of civilians died during that conflict. Today, civilian casualties are much lower during many conflicts. We've come a long way in reducing collateral damage, but still have a ways to go yet. I also believe Israel did what it could to minimize civilian casualties while still taking out their enemies.

[bozon]

Originally posted by Nilsen
Are you army, navy or airforce?

Air force officer and no, not a pilot. Lets say I'm on the "control" side of things.