Author Topic: Can HTC eliminate external view on Ar234 and Mosquito. (Read 2839 times)

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #30 on:** August 25, 2001, 04:44:00 PM »

Mosquito is not quite a figter and not quite a bomber.

Personally I dont understand why we need to see the 3D outside view setup in terms of "hard categories", why just not model it individually and logically.

Take the dedicated bomber version of the Me262, this plane was clearly a bomber, issued to bomber units, and used as such. Should it have an external view just because its a "bomber"?

Once again I dont see why the 3D external view must be coded into categories, just do it individually and leave it to logic.

Look at it this way.

If the Me110 came into the game, would it have external view?

Historically it wasnt a bomber, so it would fall into the "fighter category" and then wouldnt get one. Yet by alll logical means it has the same view setup or better than the Mosquito, which is in the "bomber category" and gets a 3D view.

Just model it individualy and logically. Or if you want to have "categories" create a "sub category" in bombers for planes that cant logically have the 3D view of the B17s Lancs etc.

I can see the following "bomber" type planes or multi seaters not having the 3D external view.

Ar234
Mosqito
Il2
Me110
Me410
Hs129
Beufighter (maybe)
Ki45

Forget this illogical and rigid "category" nonsense just set it on/off in individual planes.

Now I admit I have no idea what this involves from a programing perspective, but if the HTC crew are still the same people who made AH run extremly well and be stable on my sputtering and dying old POS 333Mhz PII with ancient Voodoo card, then I honestly cant see this slight change posing any trouble whatsover for them.

Hangtime · « **Reply #31 on:** August 25, 2001, 05:24:00 PM »

Quote

You fear Canadians... admit it.

Ever see a squirrel kick a wolf's ass?

Me neither.

SKurj · « **Reply #32 on:** August 25, 2001, 05:33:00 PM »

Grun the hardcoding thing can still stand. Just need basically 1 more aircraft category.
Attack Aircraft: No external view, pilot's 6 view is through the rear gunner's eyes if the plane has one. Aircraft that fit this category:

Bf110
ME410
Beaufighter
Mossie
Arado 234
Dauntless
Kate
Val
and a ton of other Japanese AC
IL2
Stuka
etc etc

Grunherz? besides the occasional jaunt in an IL2, do you fly any bombers at all? Or is this once again an "Anti-buff" issue?

SKurj

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #33 on:** August 25, 2001, 07:11:00 PM »

Its not really ant-buff at all. Allow me to explain.

Prolly 99% of all my "whining" on the BBS has dealtwith things I consider to be dweeby unrealistic aspects of AH.

Things like:

Niki
CV wonder flak
ostivulchers
extended range bomber guns
fighter guns killing out to 1000+ yards
flying in external views

etc...

Most of this comes from my frustration with my old sim Janes WWII fighters. That game was a dweeb mecca of sorts.

You could kill a plane with with 5 rounds of 50cal on a consistent basis.

I once had 39 kills in WWIIF on a single load of 109 ammo.

Peple flew in the outside wiew. People flew with no cockpit graphics.

The 7.62mm browning guns were lethal out to 1300meters.

Bizzare no e-loss FMs.

etc...

So when I came to AH last year and saw some of the same things, I honestly got worried AH was heading on the same path as Janes.

We had chogs sniping out to 1K plus.

We had Nikis with Bizzare FM errors.

We had bizzare buff guns.

And so on.

But back to the specific point, I simply hate 3D Arcade outside views. I hated them in Janes, and I dont want to see them to the greatest extent possible in AH. And I will lobby for this becuse I see it as an important issue.

This is honestly no different than the restriction on 3D outside views placed on GVs. Many were very afraid and resistant to this adjustment intially. But now pretty much eveyone praises it for the enhanced immersion and realism. if you wanna see outside just pop the hatch and view from the commanders cupola.

It seems resonable that similar logical enhancements
should be given to the specific bomber/attack plane view systems.

I like the "gunner 6 view idea", this seems a reasonable and fair compromise to account for their realistic view without resorting to unneccesary Arcade 3D view modes.

[ 08-25-2001: Message edited by: GRUNHERZ ]

SKurj · « **Reply #34 on:** August 25, 2001, 09:31:00 PM »

U make some valid points Grun, but I have to say... you have flown alot of IL2 sorties yet I don't see you lobbying for the removal of the external view in it +) Hehe I also notice you have very few problems dealing with the aircraft which do have external views. Your kill ratio against these class of aircraft is better than mine, by a long shot +)

I think most, if not all, agree that the external in the mossie and similar small crew aircraft really isn't neccessary, and as Pyro stated, more than likely the change will come soon. (1.09?)

The loss of external view in tanks has turned some of the best tankers away I've noticed. Some of the guys that spent a good deal of their time playin in the mud no longer do this. While it is more "realistic<g>" I am not so sure its a great idea, given the state of the ground war in Aces. bah nm

SKurj

Booky · « **Reply #35 on:** August 25, 2001, 10:23:00 PM »

GRUN,
Please don't take offense but I must say what I must. I agree that the full 3d view can be somewhat unrealistic, but look at what your asking. What differense will it make anyway? I am serious, I don't see what the big deal is. Just please explaine how it will affect game play. Also, if you get the 3d view taken from the ar234 and mossie then it better be taken from that dam IL2. I would really be ticked the IL2 held it while the others lost it. The same thing happened to my F4U-C, it got perked and the uber niki didn't what kind of crap is that anyway? Sorry, getting off topic. Anyway I really think that if they get rid of the 3d view then the only view any aircraft should get is what positions it has. That means no other view for the C-47, tail view of ar234, and all apporopriate gun positions of bombers, no external at all for any aircraft.

MHO,
Booky

SKurj · « **Reply #36 on:** August 25, 2001, 11:43:00 PM »

Arrggh I think you are getting carried away Booky +)

I think an aircraft with a crew of 5 or more guys all looking for enemy aircraft would have a much better picture of the airspace surrounding it than say a Stuka with 2 guys.
Separate the bigguns(crews of 3 or more) from the littluns (2 or less), give bigguns external view, modify internal views for littluns to improve SA to represent the guy looking out the back.

Ideally!! it would be great to be able to limit the angles at which an external view could pan. For example.. the Lanc has a huge blindspot directly underneath.. hmm the more I think about this the less i see a need for it.. The lanc is really the only buff with such a limitation in the current planeset with of course the already mentioned exceptions of the littluns.

Bah, too much time on my hands, yet i can't fly cuz of distractions YECHH!!

SKurj

Booky · « **Reply #37 on:** August 26, 2001, 12:02:00 AM »

Hehe, just trying to get my little ol opinion accossed to these guys and gals. I personally don't think it needs to be changed at all, but if it does then lets be EXTREAM

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #38 on:** August 26, 2001, 12:14:00 AM »

NP Get rid of Il2 3D view too.

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #39 on:** August 26, 2001, 12:20:00 AM »

Booky the gameplay difference is very simple, people will have have a more realistic representation of the plane, and if as all the bomber drivers say they dont fly outside view then it shouldnt change anything.

Trell · « **Reply #40 on:** August 26, 2001, 01:18:00 AM »

well as for me i kinda like the way they have it in warbirds 3 where the gunner tells you when it sees something. it shows in the text.
now i am not sure if i like having the computer gun for me but i do like it to look for me whe mthere are spost to be more people in the bomber.

trell

Fariz · « **Reply #41 on:** August 26, 2001, 01:24:00 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by SKurj:
Some of the guys that spent a good deal of their time playin in the mud no longer do this. While it is more "realistic<g>" I am not so sure its a great idea, given the state of the ground war in Aces. bah nm
SKurj

Main thing why I stopped using panzers is that terrible "one ping track lost" bug. It makes tanking extremely frustrating and almost unplayable (for me at least). Lack of external view is not a big problem, it is easily compensated by the top mg. With m16 armor clearly overmodeled I had a case when I lost a fight to m16. I was on an enemy territory, had an m16 driving toward me, pinged it 3-4 times with 75mm, then it pinged me from maximum distance and turned away. I lost track, bailed and was captured. After that I promised myself never use panzers at the enemy territory till that weird thing will be fixed.

You can start a thread asking people if any of them stopped using panzers due to lack of external view. I can bet you will find very few who will say that was a reason.

Fariz

SKurj · « **Reply #42 on:** August 26, 2001, 08:38:00 AM »

Grunherz... I don't know what you mean by "and if as all the bomber drivers say they dont fly outside view then it shouldnt change anything."

Of course all buff drivers use the F3 view. They just don't fire guns or attack anything while in this view. Try it sometime and you will see why. The only advantage to the external view is better SA.

When I am on a bomb run, as I am getting close to the target I will move to F3 and make a quick scan. As I fly from base I will sit in F3 view often and just look around while on auto. When that bogey I have been tracking from the tailgun position has moved out of my field of view I will move to F3 to regain sight, and then to the appropriate gun position if neccessary.

I think my suggestion of the attack class is the best alternative so far for the view system. We can rest assured I think that the external view isn't going anywhere on the heavies.

I hear ya Fariz, the current damage model on the FP and Panzer sucks.. but didn't the external view dissappear prior to the new damage model? I believe it was rollo in the MA the other night who said it was the loss of the external view that turned him off the tanks. I could be wrong though.

SKurj

[ 08-26-2001: Message edited by: SKurj ]

GRUNHERZ · « **Reply #43 on:** August 26, 2001, 07:34:00 PM »

Skurj the F3 view went away the same time the new armor model came in. I know I dont bother driving tanks now, not that I drove them much before tho, because the M16 and Ostwind can kill me before I can kill them with the new model. The M16 can resist 75mm AP/HE and the Osties 37mm is a better AT gun than the 75mm since its easier to score hits and can easlily score hits while both the Panzer and osti are moving, which is utter roadkill as well.

As for F3 view flying.

Every time I "dogfigte" a buff which turns or dives or loops perfectly to avoid my passes I ask the buff driver if he was flying the buff on outside view. To a man they all say they arent. Riiiiiight

.

Anyway since "none" of them manuver the buff on F3 3D outside view non should ovject to certain logical limitations on it.

For "regular" buffs like B17s, Lancs, B26s, and Ju88s I think engaging the F3 view should automaticallyt turn on "autopilot level" so the buff cant instantly manouver in an unrealistic manner from the unrealistic perfect 3D view.

Once again the buff guys always tell me they DONT fly the 3D outside view in evasives, so I should expect no opposition to this change. Right?

Booky · « **Reply #44 on:** August 26, 2001, 09:44:00 PM »

how about "Autopilot Climb" that way I can still use this SA advantage while getting alt

I wont lie, I use 3D view when flying against fighters almost always, but you never asked me in the sim. I guess if im out of ammo I need all the help I can, and if I'm not out of ammo then Ill be in gun, not 3D view.