A Non-HO scoring question for Pyro.

[Wanker]

I listed this scenario in the HO-thread by Gatt, but it got buried. Here's the scenario:

1. I get on opponents six(skillfully avoiding his HO technique)

2. I blow his wing off, he rides his ship to the ground(which is going to take a while)

3. A countrymate of my victim bounces me while I'm fixatedly tearing apart my victim above. My plane blows up, I
die.

Result: His buddy gets the kill for me, but I get no credit for the guy who is plummeting to the ground in a plane
without a wing.

I made a non-HO kill, but I was shot down shortly thereafter. Pyro, are we going to continue with this type of scoring? Or are we going to start getting credit for kills made just before our own demise?

On a side note, Ghosth's idea of not getting any credit for kills unless you rtb safely is very interesting.



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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
"On the whole, it is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them"

[Citabria]

I dunno, if you cant survive long enough for your first opponent to hit the ground you probably entered the engagedment under very certain death circumstances.

as for rtb for kills to count. I am not to keen on this as it takes away from those who enjoy the fight more than the ride home  

personally the best part for me and the moment I find most satisfying is hearing the wheels chirp on the tarmac after a tough succesful mission but I see no point in punishing others for the style of fighting they find most enjoyable.

cheers.


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CitabriAirbatiC

"There Is No Spoon"

[tshred]

Don't agree Citabria, say you enter a 2v2 engagement and you blow the wing off of one con, while the other gets you before your wingman can clear your 6. Is this a bad situation? No, it's just unfortunate that your buddy didn't get the other enemy before you bought it. Should you be denied the kill? Hell no, because if your buddy survived, and rtb'd he'd get the credit in Aces(if he was the closest), in the 'War', it would have been reported that the you got the kill if your buddy confirmed it, he wouldn't take credit for it (hopefully, LOL).

I'm with banana and a dozen others....the scoring is porked! And I've lost interest in it since Beta Tour 3 started, as my scoring record relfects since then.

ts

[Pongo]

I agree with banana on point 1.
If the wing is gone and you have gun camera film, the IO will give you a little mark for your plane...Isnt it weird how the hardest kill to be shure of in real life(pilot kill) is the easiest to identify in the game? and the easiest to identify in real life(whole wing gone) is the hardest to identify.
On point 2 I dissagree with banana. The current way that kill are rewarded does not restrict people from flying to live. There are stats that are specifically for people who try to streach there streaks. The proposed revision removes that choice. People that want to fight in a more "Defence of Malta/Guadalcanal" mode can.
If you want to use the score system to encourage people to play the way you want too, it might be better to give bonus points and an message for landing kills.
And the opposit.
IE
Pongos 3 kill mission was ended by Keiren

and

Pongo has landed a 3 kill mission

Pongo has ditched a 3 kill mission

Pongos 6 target bombing mission ended by Keiren

Pongo Bombed 6 targets and landed

you might put a limit of how much must be accomplished to get the message and or the bonus

This way people would not be required to fly the way that some of us want them too, but they would get extra reward for the admittedly more difficult task of a landing  a high scoring mission.


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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Tern]

 

Originally posted by Citabria:
...as for rtb for kills to count. I am not to keen on this as it takes away from those who enjoy the fight more than the ride home  
...

For the most part, I agree with Citabria, (whom I think could fly two sticks tied together with a rubber band power plant and still kill me deader than last weeks news.)  

Hmm... How about if the shooter lives to return to base?  RTB's on foot, rescue plane, ditches safely, grabs a carrier pigeon, or lands back at his base?
Maybe award varying degrees of success for each mode of a "safe" return?

Bails or Ditches (enemy turf) = 1/8th points
Own side of the fence = 1/4th points

Rescued by C-47 (enemy turf)= 1/2 points
Own side of fence = 1/16th  (Penalty for endangering short hop goonies.)  

You get the drift?  I'm not sure of the way the points are awarded now, but I bet there'd be a hell of a lot fewer HO's with an incentive to survive system in place.  



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Tern
"Live to Fly!  Fly to Fight!  Fight to Live!"
========================
"There I was, inverted at 50 feet and 120 kts. and the only thing running was the radio."

[AKDejaVu]

Its a bit of a catch 22 on this one.  I'm for getting credit for the kill... but I like the idea that you have to survive a bit after shooting the individual down to get the kill.

Anything that cures target fixation is a good thing.  Actaully thinking about the fact that you may not get the kill for the plane in front of you if the plane behind you gets the kill first is closer to what I perceive to be realistic than believing that as long as you get the enemies wing, you will get the kill even if the guy on your 6 kills you first.  Not from a "pilots in WW2 got kills postumously" standpoint, but from a "there are consequences to having an enemy plane behind you" standpoint.  Since death cannot be one of those consequences for legal reasons... anything else that adds to to the tension/realization/awareness is a good thing IMO.

As for:

 

If the wing is gone and you have gun camera film

I think the key there is making sure that guncam makes it back to your base so that people can see it.

The damage model in most of these games is entirely unrealistic.  Were there this many de-winged aircraft kills in WW2?  Were there this many aircraft that had every control surface blown off of their aircraft?  It seems to me most deaths would be as a result of some kind of control failure.. beit broken off or just jammed (combined with the pilot kill of course).  To model these types of damage in a flight sim, however, would mean modeling actuators, cables and lines throughout the aircraft.  Just watch your spf (seconds per frame) go to 3 as your computer crunches ricoche effects and fragmentation as lines, bulkheads and actuators are destroyed.

So, I submit that there were plenty of kills in WW2 that pilots didn't know they had.  Planes that appeared to be in controll where the pilot was dead or hadn't come to that realization yet.  We are lucky(?) that we have the visual cues we are given... that is actually the unrealistic portion... you know just when to stop firing because you know that pilot will die.  As well is flying knowing you will get the guy in front of you before the guy behind you gets the kill... and being ok with that.

As for flying in a 2:2 and getting in a daisy chain situation.  You would be doing your wingman a service by breaking off of the non threat (guy in front of you) to focus on the threat (guy behind you)... even if it means dragging the enemy into a more shootable position for your wingman.  Then.. the both of you go for the other plane.  Once again.. your tactics may vary... but this one works well for me.

AKDejaVu

[Wanker]

Very thoughtful post, AKDejaVu. I must admit that I agree with you on this one.

I'm really just wondering if Pyro can confirm that the current scoring method will remain. If so, I'll be more careful before I engage, and try not to get fixated on my target.

Wow, very good ideas there, Pongo. Maybe HTC would consider giving some form of Ghost's and your ideas a try in the future.

Pyro, any thoughts on this? Not trying to drag you into a trap, just am wondering if you'd give this any serious consideration.

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banana
308 (Polish) Squadron RAF "City of Cracow"
"On the whole, it is better to deserve honors and not have them than to have them and not deserve them"

[This message has been edited by banana (edited 04-05-2000).]

[Pongo]

This game simulates crippiling damage to a component by having it disapear. It would often still be there in some dilapidated form.
As to there being many kills that people did not get credit for historically, While true, of course the error is in the oppisite direction far more planes where claimed shot down than where shot down. Sometimes like in the solomons this had a real effect on the outcome of the battle, the Japanese felt that they had destroyed the entire force at henderson several times over due to overclaiming.

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[AKDejaVu]

 

This game simulates crippiling damage to a component by having it disapear

It simulates one particular type of damage to a component.  If a certain component is damaged, things always happen the same way.  I don't know of a combat sim that effectively models "jammed components".  I guess you could argue they do.. but they are always jammed in a neutral position.  

How about some jams when the right aileron is deflecting up and sticks that way... make some real challenges in flight.  It also eliminates some of the predictableness of the damage model.  That is the part that is missing from any combat sim I've flown.  You always learned how to compensate (or when to give up) for every type of damage incurred.  This is because there is a very finite list off errors.

So.. its not a dig on any sim out right now because I don't really know if this can be changed given today's average cpu capabilities.  Three years down the road, however, I'd expect to see someone trying to figure out how to do these things.  Seems to me the time to start would be about now.

AKDejaVu

[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 04-05-2000).]

[Pongo]

I like that..
Radio goes..
Instruments wrecked
Throttle jamed open.
good idea.

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Pongo
The Wrecking Crew

[Ghosth]

Well this is an interesting thread.
I'm with with you on the damaged parts.

Imagine flying along tangleing with another AC, all of a sudden your radio buffer stops working.

Or Rudder is in partial right turn.  

Engine controls shot away & it wildcats on you. (keeps revving higher & higher till it tears itself apart)

Perhaps some would not like it, but for me,
the more realism the better. (right up to the point where my monitor shoots me in the head)

I think a combination of realism, and reason to live would improve not just the overall sim but gameplay as well.



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Maj Ghosth
XO 332nd Flying Mongrels

[Sorrow[S=A]]

Umm guys? as a bona fide target drone I can tell ya for sure that jammed and partially damaged components ARE in the game. I have several time had rudders stuck in a slight turn, ailerons jammed making the plane want to roll and elevators that jam in a slightly up or down position. Usually .50 cals damage me or 13mm against .205's and 109's. I have had to land some DAMN interesting rudder jams before.

[easymo]

 FA, WB, AW, all report kills  more or less the same way. I dont ever remember reading a complaint about the system they use. This subject keeps cumming up in one form or another in AH. Maby HTC has fixed something that wasnt broke.

[AKDejaVu]

Sounds alot more like TRIM effects sorrow.  Next time it happens hit Shift X and see if it clears up

I've noticed that when you lose your engine, the airplane instantly starts to roll because of aileron trim.  I have never seen an aileron that stopped moving.  I have never seen an elevator get stuck and not move at all... either its gone or its there.

AKDejaVu

[Minotaur]

I know one thing the current systems does for me.  When I get a good shot, I lay on the trigger.  I make sure the plane blows up. I even shoot at the explosion!

That way I get the kill.  

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Mino
The Wrecking Crew