Author Topic: This Should Have Gone into Production...  (Read 2667 times)

Offline Shuckins

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This Should Have Gone into Production...
« on: August 07, 2006, 09:45:30 AM »



Peak output of the R2800-18w powerplant was 2450hp at sea-level with water injection.

Top speed at 25,000 feet was 425mph.

Offline dragon25

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This Should Have Gone into Production...
« Reply #1 on: August 07, 2006, 12:18:46 PM »
What is that AC? Looks like a F6 or something to my untrained eye


Offline Masherbrum

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This Should Have Gone into Production...
« Reply #2 on: August 07, 2006, 12:39:20 PM »
F6F-6?
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Offline straffo

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This Should Have Gone into Production...
« Reply #3 on: August 07, 2006, 12:39:55 PM »
Right , it's an XF6F6

Offline Shuckins

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« Reply #4 on: August 07, 2006, 12:45:39 PM »
Masherbrun was first with the correct identification.

Congratulations!  You win a cookie!  :D

I have searched many times for more information on this aircraft's performance in the areas of climb, etc. but haven't been able to find any.

This aircraft could have been in use on the carriers by summer of 1945.  I always thought it was a mistake for Grumman not to have put it into production.

Regards, Shuckins

Offline Masherbrum

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« Reply #5 on: August 07, 2006, 01:05:08 PM »
IIRC, this had a top speed of around 417mph.   The Navy wanted this to replace the -5 (and based on the -5 platform) because of performance gains "all over the board".   But the end of WWII cancelled production.   I want to say their tailcodes were 70188 and 70913 but don't quote me on it.
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Offline straffo

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This Should Have Gone into Production...
« Reply #6 on: August 07, 2006, 01:05:54 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Masherbrun was first with the correct identification.

Congratulations!  You win a cookie!  :D

I have searched many times for more information on this aircraft's performance in the areas of climb, etc. but haven't been able to find any.

This aircraft could have been in use on the carriers by summer of 1945.  I always thought it was a mistake for Grumman not to have put it into production.

Regards, Shuckins


pffff he forgot the X ;)

Offline Masherbrum

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This Should Have Gone into Production...
« Reply #7 on: August 07, 2006, 01:33:31 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by straffo
pffff he forgot the X ;)


:rofl  
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Offline straffo

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« Reply #8 on: August 07, 2006, 02:42:00 PM »
That's better than 10 cookies !

Offline joeblogs

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performance data
« Reply #9 on: August 07, 2006, 03:49:57 PM »
Two places to look are Rene Francillon's book on Grumman aircraft and Barrett Tillman's Hellcat.

-Blogs

Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Masherbrun was first with the correct identification.

Congratulations!  You win a cookie!  :D

I have searched many times for more information on this aircraft's performance in the areas of climb, etc. but haven't been able to find any.

This aircraft could have been in use on the carriers by summer of 1945.  I always thought it was a mistake for Grumman not to have put it into production.

Regards, Shuckins

Offline Widewing

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This Should Have Gone into Production...
« Reply #10 on: August 07, 2006, 07:18:46 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Masherbrum
IIRC, this had a top speed of around 417mph.   The Navy wanted this to replace the -5 (and based on the -5 platform) because of performance gains "all over the board".   But the end of WWII cancelled production.   I want to say their tailcodes were 70188 and 70913 but don't quote me on it.


Grumman claimed a max speed of 435 mph. I've seen published climb rates for the XF6F-6 that were below that of the F6F-5. This is typical of the non-technical writers dabbling i aviation history. They often publish MIL power performance rather than Combat power ratings. I don't have the Grumman data handy, but I recall that its climb rate was virtually identical to the F4U-4, while having considerably greater internal fuel capacity.  

Ultimately, it was the Navy that elected to produce the F8F-1 instead of the F6F-6.

Since the F6F production could be quickly adapted to the revised aircraft, Grumman's manufacturing management wanted the F6F-6 to go into production immediately. Bob Hall (Director of the Experimental Department) wanted his F8F to get the nod. Arguments were made to Roy Grumman. Grumman, who saw great merit in both aircraft formally asked the Navy to make a decision. Not surprising, there were advocates of both types within the Naval Aviation hiarchy. However, it was determined that the F6F-5 was adequate for the short term and a new production line was being tooled-up for the F8F, thus the Bearcat was selected.

Had the F6F-6 been selected, Grumman would have been began delivering these by November of 1944, meaning it would have been in combat no later than January of 1945, months before the F4U-4. Originally, the Navy planned to phase in the F6F-6 as they did the F6F-5, sending them to combat units as replacement aircraft as well as refitting units coming back from deployments. We all know that the F8F didn't see combat, although it was deployed on carriers enroute to Japan at the surrender.

I have always been an advocate of "a good solution in a timely fashion is always more desirable than a perfect solution too late". If I had to make the choice between the F6F-6 and the F8F-1, I would have picked the improved Hellcat as this would have placed better aircraft in the fleet sooner. However, I would also have gotten F8F production underway at Eastern Aircraft ASAP, stopping FM-2 production immediately. Of course, the politics of such a decision would not have sat well with Grumman. Eastern did receive a contract for the FM3-1 (F8F-1) in February of 1945, but hadn't yet begun basic assembly when the war ended (largely because the obsolete FM-2 was consuming much of Eastern's resources). Another reason for selecting the F6F-6 was that F4U-4 production was typically slow. Grumman was delivering Hellcats at nearly twice the rate F4Us were being delivered, and the F4U was being manufactured by Vought and Goodyear (and Brewster, until their pathetic delivery and quality control resulted in a cancelled contract). Getting better aircraft to the fleet as fast as possible would weigh heavy on my thinking.

My regards,

Widewing
« Last Edit: August 07, 2006, 07:23:15 PM by Widewing »
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline joeblogs

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Stats on XF6f-6
« Reply #11 on: August 07, 2006, 08:24:28 PM »
These are from francillon, who had access to the Grumman archives.

I include the more common models for comparison


________________F6f-3____F6f-5____xF6f-6

wing loading______37.2_____38.1___ _38.2
(lb/sq ft)

power loading_____ 6.2______6.4_____6.1
(lb/hp)

max speed_______375_______380____ 417
(mph/ft)________17,300____23,400___21,900

climb rate________3,500_____2,980___3,070
(ft/min)

service ceiling____38,400____37,300___39,000
(ft)

normal range_____1,090_______945___1,170
(miles)

max range_______1,590______1,355___1,730
(miles)


-blogs


Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
Masherbrun was first with the correct identification.

Congratulations!  You win a cookie!  :D

I have searched many times for more information on this aircraft's performance in the areas of climb, etc. but haven't been able to find any.

This aircraft could have been in use on the carriers by summer of 1945.  I always thought it was a mistake for Grumman not to have put it into production.

Regards, Shuckins
« Last Edit: August 07, 2006, 08:30:13 PM by joeblogs »

Offline Shuckins

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This Should Have Gone into Production...
« Reply #12 on: August 07, 2006, 09:41:00 PM »
There are some things about Francillon's data that don't add up for me.

How could the XF6F-6 with a lower power loading, 450 more horsepower, a Hamilton-Standard propeller with four 6501 blades instead of three, have a climb rate almost 500 feet a minute less than that of the F6F-3?

Secondly, the 380 mph top speed for the F6F-5 is in error.  This model of the Hellcat had been tweaked to provide a higher top speed than that of the -3 model:  A smaller engine cowling to reduce drag;  replacement of the two-tone, non-specular (flat) paint finish with a glossy enamel with highly polished wax job;  and a water injection system.  It seems highly unlikely that these improvements would have produced only a 5mph increase over the top speed of the -3.

Francis Dean's tome "America's Hundred Thousand" records the following fact:  In January of 1944 a modified F6F-3, including some of the features to be included in the later F6F-5 version, is flown at a high speed of 410mph at 21,000 feet altitude.

The actual top-speed has been a matter of considerable debate and speculation on these boards in the past...but NAS combat tests with a A6M5 revealed a top speed of 409mph.  Chance-Vought's tests of a -5 Hellcat also showed a top speed in excess of 400mph.  

The 417mph top speed for the XF6F-6 is recorded at an altitude of 23,400 feet.  Dean states, however, that the top speed of 425mph came at an altitude of 25,000 feet.

Regards, Shuckins

Offline Masherbrum

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This Should Have Gone into Production...
« Reply #13 on: August 07, 2006, 10:21:50 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
There are some things about Francillon's data that don't add up for me.

How could the XF6F-6 with a lower power loading, 450 more horsepower, a Hamilton-Standard propeller with four 6501 blades instead of three, have a climb rate almost 500 feet a minute less than that of the F6F-3?

Secondly, the 380 mph top speed for the F6F-5 is in error.  This model of the Hellcat had been tweaked to provide a higher top speed than that of the -3 model:  A smaller engine cowling to reduce drag;  replacement of the two-tone, non-specular (flat) paint finish with a glossy enamel with highly polished wax job;  and a water injection system.  It seems highly unlikely that these improvements would have produced only a 5mph increase over the top speed of the -3.

Francis Dean's tome "America's Hundred Thousand" records the following fact:  In January of 1944 a modified F6F-3, including some of the features to be included in the later F6F-5 version, is flown at a high speed of 410mph at 21,000 feet altitude.

The actual top-speed has been a matter of considerable debate and speculation on these boards in the past...but NAS combat tests with a A6M5 revealed a top speed of 409mph.  Chance-Vought's tests of a -5 Hellcat also showed a top speed in excess of 400mph.  

The 417mph top speed for the XF6F-6 is recorded at an altitude of 23,400 feet.  Dean states, however, that the top speed of 425mph came at an altitude of 25,000 feet.

Regards, Shuckins


The extra weight of the engine, prop?
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Offline joeblogs

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adding up
« Reply #14 on: August 08, 2006, 05:43:02 AM »
Power loading is weight to horsepower. Lower is better. While thexF6-6 has a slightly better power loading, it has a higher wingloading, which translates into a generally poorer climb performance. In short it's the extra weight on the plane when the -5 when into production.

We've all heard the stories about the pitot tube of the -3. But you don't want to use different methods to make a comparison of the speed between two different versions of the plane. Otherwise we wind up in an apples and oranges comparison of relative performance. In particular, the other tests were done at different weights. What if we took 400lbs off the xF6-6?....

Fact is the 380 number is based on a navy test with the official military weight.  If you think it's really 400MPH, then add 20 to the top speed of the other models too.

In terms of drag you see similar exercises with the Spitfire. If you read Alfred Price's Spitfire story, you see lots of examples of experiments with the surface of the plane that resulted in changes of 3-5 MPH.

-Blogs

Quote
Originally posted by Shuckins
There are some things about Francillon's data that don't add up for me.

How could the XF6F-6 with a lower power loading, 450 more horsepower, a Hamilton-Standard propeller with four 6501 blades instead of three, have a climb rate almost 500 feet a minute less than that of the F6F-3?

Secondly, the 380 mph top speed for the F6F-5 is in error.  This model of the Hellcat had been tweaked to provide a higher top speed than that of the -3 model:  A smaller engine cowling to reduce drag;  replacement of the two-tone, non-specular (flat) paint finish with a glossy enamel with highly polished wax job;  and a water injection system.  It seems highly unlikely that these improvements would have produced only a 5mph increase over the top speed of the -3.

Francis Dean's tome "America's Hundred Thousand" records the following fact:  In January of 1944 a modified F6F-3, including some of the features to be included in the later F6F-5 version, is flown at a high speed of 410mph at 21,000 feet altitude.

The actual top-speed has been a matter of considerable debate and speculation on these boards in the past...but NAS combat tests with a A6M5 revealed a top speed of 409mph.  Chance-Vought's tests of a -5 Hellcat also showed a top speed in excess of 400mph.  

The 417mph top speed for the XF6F-6 is recorded at an altitude of 23,400 feet.  Dean states, however, that the top speed of 425mph came at an altitude of 25,000 feet.

Regards, Shuckins