Author Topic: 15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense  (Read 564 times)

Offline xrtoronto

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15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense
« on: August 08, 2006, 09:49:21 PM »
Published: August 7, 2006

In the last year, 15 states have enacted laws that expand the right of self-defense, allowing crime victims to use deadly force in situations that might formerly have subjected them to prosecution for murder.

Supporters call them “stand your ground” laws. Opponents call them “shoot first” laws.

Thanks to this sort of law, a prostitute in Port Richey, Fla., who killed her 72-year-old client with his own gun rather than flee was not charged last month. Similarly, the police in Clearwater, Fla., did not arrest a man who shot a neighbor in early June after a shouting match over putting out garbage, though the authorities say they are still reviewing the evidence.

The first of the new laws took effect in Florida in October, and cases under it are now reaching prosecutors and juries there. The other laws, mostly in Southern and Midwestern states, were enacted this year, according to the National Rifle Association, which has enthusiastically promoted them.

Florida does not keep comprehensive records on the impact of its new law, but prosecutors and defense lawyers there agree that fewer people who claim self-defense are being charged or convicted.

The Florida law, which served as a model for the others, gives people the right to use deadly force against intruders entering their homes. They no longer need to prove that they feared for their safety, only that the person they killed had intruded unlawfully and forcefully. The law also extends this principle to vehicles.

In addition, the law does away with an earlier requirement that a person attacked in a public place must retreat if possible. Now, that same person, in the law’s words, “has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his or her ground and meet force with force, including deadly force.” The law also forbids the arrest, detention or prosecution of the people covered by the law, and it prohibits civil suits against them.

The central innovation in the Florida law, said Anthony J. Sebok, a professor at Brooklyn Law School, is not its elimination of the duty to retreat, which has been eroding nationally through judicial decisions, but in expanding the right to shoot intruders who pose no threat to the occupant’s safety.

“In effect,” Professor Sebok said, “the law allows citizens to kill other citizens in defense of property.”

This month, a jury in West Palm Beach, Fla., will hear the retrial of a murder case that illustrates the dividing line between the old law and the new one. In November 2004, before the new law was enacted, a cabdriver in West Palm Beach killed a drunken passenger in an altercation after dropping him off.

The first jury deadlocked 9-to-3 in favor of convicting the driver, Robert Lee Smiley Jr., said Henry Munnilal, the jury foreman.

“Mr. Smiley had a lot of chances to retreat and to avoid an escalation,” said Mr. Munnilal, a 62-year-old accountant. “He could have just gotten in his cab and left. The thing could have been avoided, and a man’s life would have been saved.”

Mr. Smiley tried to invoke the new law, which does away with the duty to retreat and would almost certainly have meant his acquittal, but an appeals court refused to apply it retroactively. He has appealed that issue to the Florida Supreme Court.

Wayne LaPierre, executive vice president of the N.R.A., said the Florida law had sent a needed message to law-abiding citizens.

“If they make a decision to save their lives in the split second they are being attacked, the law is on their side,” Mr. LaPierre said. “Good people make good decisions. That’s why they’re good people. If you’re going to empower someone, empower the crime victim.”

The N.R.A. said it would lobby for versions of the law in eight more states in 2007.

Sarah Brady, chairwoman of the Brady Campaign to Prevent Gun Violence, said her group would fight those efforts. “In a way,” Ms. Brady said of the new laws, “it’s a license to kill.”

Many prosecutors oppose the laws, saying they are unnecessary at best and pernicious at worst. “They’re basically giving citizens more rights to use deadly force than we give police officers, and with less review,” said Paul A. Logli, president of the National District Attorneys Association.

But some legal experts doubt the laws will make a practical difference. “It’s inconceivable to me that one in a hundred Floridians could tell you how the law has changed,” said Gary Kleck, who teaches criminology at Florida State University.

Even before the new laws, Professor Kleck added, claims of self-defense were often accepted. “In the South,” he said, “they more or less give the benefit of the doubt to the alleged victim’s account.”


con'd on page two...

source

I thought you guys already could shoot someone for breaking into your house?

Offline nirvana

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15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense
« Reply #1 on: August 08, 2006, 10:02:12 PM »
I know in Colorado you can, and a few other states as well.  Here in Colorado we call it the "Make My Day" law.  There are grey areas in it though and it's not as all inclusive as the one in the article.  For example:

If an intruder is in your house but is running away (hence back towards you), you can't shoot.

If the intruder is not carrying a deadly weapon such as a knife, gun, baton etc, you can't shoot.

I can't tell you exact numbers of how many times the law has been enforced because I really don't know.  It's similar to if some ******* tries to rob a convenience store and gets popped in the dome, criminals fault (video camera evidence is cool yeah?)
Who are you to wave your finger?

Offline Eagler

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15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense
« Reply #2 on: August 09, 2006, 07:24:34 AM »
yep, you think twice around here before you argue with anyone about something trivial
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Offline Hawklore

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15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense
« Reply #3 on: August 09, 2006, 08:55:40 AM »
Speakin of..

This reminded me I need to look for a .45 semi-automatic reliable and safe hang gun to put in my truck.

:)
"So live your life that the fear of death can never enter your heart.
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respect others in their view, and demand that they respect yours.
Love your life, perfect your life, beautify all things in your life." - Chief Tecumseh

Offline lazs2

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15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense
« Reply #4 on: August 09, 2006, 09:18:41 AM »
well see..... every once in a while there is some good news.

If it bothers the NY times or xtoronto... it is good news for the rest of us.

Those who say that there is no difference between the dems and republicans need to see this stuff.

So many bad guns laws have been struck down by the NRA and republicans this year...  many many new non liberal socialist judges have been appointed...  

New Supreme court justices that believe in the constitution and bill of rights....  

protection from frivolous lawsuits for gunmakers.... the list of good things is long... the list of bad things that would have happened under a democrat would be as long or longer.

lazs

Offline lukster

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15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense
« Reply #5 on: August 09, 2006, 09:27:16 AM »
Occasionally common sense prevails.

Offline Blank

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15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense
« Reply #6 on: August 09, 2006, 09:44:14 AM »
Mmm Was wondering ,

if somebody wonders into somebodys home and is confronted by an armed homeowner, then trespasser fearing for his life shoots and kills the homeowner in selfdefence (as the homeowner is now empowered to use deadly force).

Now the trespasser doesn't have to retreat to safety to escape an altercation so isn't he within his rights to protect himself in the eyes of the law and shoot to protect himself?


but i suppose that the trespasser might be a bad guy and would of killed the homeowner anyway so at least the homeowner can shoot as well now.

But will you see cases where a burglar who may have the correct fire arm permits only be charged with burglary and not the murder of the homeowner as it was in self defence?

(and no i'm not anti gun i come from one of those most rare and endagered things a UK hunting family) just interested in US Laws.

Offline Vudak

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15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense
« Reply #7 on: August 09, 2006, 09:56:44 AM »
As long as each incident is still investigated thouroughly, I don't see a problem with helping a guy defend his home.

I don't really know about that whole stand your ground in public thing though.  I could see that turning into a machoman fest where random people get caught in the crossfire.  

Now if you're attacked in public...  Not just argued loudly against...
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Offline Captain Virgil Hilts

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15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense
« Reply #8 on: August 09, 2006, 10:14:04 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Blank
Mmm Was wondering ,

if somebody wonders into somebodys home and is confronted by an armed homeowner, then trespasser fearing for his life shoots and kills the homeowner in selfdefence (as the homeowner is now empowered to use deadly force).

Now the trespasser doesn't have to retreat to safety to escape an altercation so isn't he within his rights to protect himself in the eyes of the law and shoot to protect himself?


but i suppose that the trespasser might be a bad guy and would of killed the homeowner anyway so at least the homeowner can shoot as well now.

But will you see cases where a burglar who may have the correct fire arm permits only be charged with burglary and not the murder of the homeowner as it was in self defence?

(and no i'm not anti gun i come from one of those most rare and endagered things a UK hunting family) just interested in US Laws.


The tresspasser is acting outside the law and is NOT protected by the statute that allows the homeowner to stand his ground.

A concealed carry permit does not allow you to legally carry a firearm in the commission of a crime.

So no, there will be no cases where a criminal is not charged with some sort of homicide because he had a concealed carry permit when he killed someone while committing a crime.
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Offline Sandman

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15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2006, 10:19:35 AM »
Quote
The Florida law, which served as a model for the others, gives people the right to use deadly force against intruders entering their homes. They no longer need to prove that they feared for their safety, only that the person they killed had intruded unlawfully and forcefully. The law also extends this principle to vehicles.


Sounds like a good law to me.

However, I am waiting for some silly sod in Florida to kill someone for intruding on their front lawn. ;)
sand

Offline lukster

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15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2006, 10:26:22 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Sandman
Sounds like a good law to me.

However, I am waiting for some silly sod in Florida to kill someone for intruding on their front lawn. ;)


It's happened, likely many times. You can't shoot someone for walking on your grass unless they are attacking you, tempting as it may be. ;)

Offline xrtoronto

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15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense
« Reply #11 on: August 09, 2006, 12:08:52 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lazs2
If it bothers the NY times or xtoronto... it is good news for the rest of us.


4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 12:21:56 PM by MP4 »

Offline lukster

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15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense
« Reply #12 on: August 09, 2006, 12:20:05 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by xrtoronto
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.


4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2006, 12:23:14 PM by MP4 »

Offline xrtoronto

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15 States Expand Right to Shoot in Self-Defense
« Reply #13 on: August 09, 2006, 12:23:32 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by lukster
4- Members should post in a way that is respectful of other users and HTC. Flaming or abusing users is not tolerated.  


after reading your posts, it's not hard to figure out what your full of