Author Topic: The Bible on War Conference - 25th - 26th (Read 697 times)

Seagoon · « **on:** August 09, 2006, 11:08:32 PM »

Hi Guys,

I know that most of you won't be interested in this, but I thought I'd post it for those of you with relatives in the military who are in the area and might be interested. Please feel free to pass this on as you wish. If someone would like to attend, but would need overnight accomodation, please contact me and I'll see if I can't find a place to stay free (or if you would prefer I can tell you which motels/hotels are nearest).

On August 25th and 26th we will be hosting a free conference entitled Bearing the Sword: What the Bible Says About War and Capital Punishment. I decided on the subject because questions concerning the bible's teaching on war are what I field most often from members of our largely military community (Fayetteville is the home of Ft. Bragg and Pope Airforce Base). Our Speakers this year are Pastor Rick Phillips, and Professor Tony Curto. Basic biographical information for these gentlemen is available below.

Bearing the Sword: What the Bible Says About War and Capital Punishment
A Free Bible Conference - August 25-26 2006
Providence PCA Church
2801 Ramsey St., Fayetteville, NC 28301

SCHEDULE

FRIDAY, AUGUST 25

7:00 PM - Rick Phillips - Understanding the Sixth Commandment

SATURDAY, AUGUST 26

9:00 AM - Tony Curto - Capital Punishment and the Civil Magistrate

10:15-10:30 AM - Break

10:30AM - Rick Phillips - The Christian View of War

11:45AM - Q&A Session

12:30 AM - 2:00 PM - CATERED LUNCH AT THE CHURCH

2:00 PM - Rick Phillips - The Christian Idea of Valor

3:15 PM - Q&A Session

4:15 PM - 7:00 PM - Dinner Break

7:00PM - Tony Curto - Civil War, Revolution, and Civil Disobedience

-------------------
Pastor Rick Phillips - Richard Phillips is senior minister of First Presbyterian Church in Coral Springs/Margate, Florida (PCA). He previously served as minister of preaching at the historic Tenth Presbyterian Church in Philadelphia. He is also a board member of the Alliance of Confessing Evangelicals and is chairman of the Philadelphia Conference on Reformed Theology. His preaching is heard on the radio program God’s Living Word, broadcast in South Florida on FM 90.3 WAFG.

An officer in the United States Army for thirteen years, Phillips commanded tank units and later served as assistant professor of leadership at West Point before resigning with the rank of major to enter the ministry. He holds degrees from the University of Michigan, the Wharton School of Business and Westminster Theological Seminary.

Reverend Phillips is the author of numerous books, including his most recent, Chosen in Christ: The Glory of God’s Grace in Ephesians 1.

Professor Tony Curto - Having pastored several churches in Southern California, and having served several years as a missionary to the Karamojong people in Uganda, Tony Curto is currently Professor of Practical Theology and Evangelism at Greenville Presbyterian Theological Seminary in Greenville, SC.

Prof. Curto, who is the son and grandson of US Marines, holds B.A., M.A., M.Div., and D.Min. degrees and is the author of The Dawning Light, A History of the Scottish Presbyterian Church.
-------------------------

Registration for the conference is free, but there is a $3 charge for the lunch on Saturday

Childcare will also be available at a rate of $5 a day per family

To register for the conference in advance, please send an email to providencepca@hotmail.com indicating:

The Names of People Attending the Conference:
Contact Email and Phone #s:
Which Days You Will Be Attending:
How Many Will Need Lunch on Saturday:
How Many Children Will Need Childcare and Which Days:

Also please feel free to ask any questions via email or phone (my contact information can be found here:
http://www.providencepca.com/feedback.html

- SEAGOON

Elfie · « **Reply #1 on:** August 10, 2006, 02:06:28 AM »

Seagoon that sounds very interesting, to bad I live so far away.

Seagoon · « **Reply #2 on:** August 10, 2006, 10:11:40 AM »

Hi Elfie,

I'm sorry too, it would have been good to meet you. I Wish I could offer to fly in interested people, but sadly the only aircraft I can afford to operate are all virtual so the best I can do is try to offer a free place to stay.

Ah well, if you are ever in vicinity, drop by anyway.

~~- SEAGOON~~

cpxxx · « **Reply #3 on:** August 10, 2006, 11:15:48 AM »

Never mind the bible. What do the ten commandments say about war?

'Thou shalt not kill'.

Hmm, no room for interpretation there.

Seagoon · « **Reply #4 on:** August 10, 2006, 11:36:04 AM »

Hi cpxxx,

Quote

Originally posted by cpxxx
Never mind the bible. What do the ten commandments say about war?

'Thou shalt not kill'.

Hmm, no room for interpretation there.

Your statement actually partially illustrates why we feel the need to have a conference.

As you are probably well aware, the Ten Commandments are found in the Bible at Exodus 20 and again in Deuteronomy 5. They were originally given in Hebrew, not 16th century King James Version English and thus the 6th commandment is actually Lo Ratsach - literally "Do Not Murder". Consequently, most modern English translations (NIV, NASB, NKJV, etc.) all translate Exodus 20:13 as "You Shall not Murder".

The fact that the commandments are found in the midst of positive commandments to put evil doers to death should indicate that Exodus 20:13 cannot be a blanket prohibition on all taking of human life. For instance in the very next chapter we read that God also told Moses to teach the following to the people -

"He who strikes a man so that he dies shall surely be put to death. However, if he did not lie in wait, but God delivered him into his hand, then I will appoint for you a place where he may flee. But if a man acts with premeditation against his neighbor, to kill him by treachery, you shall take him from My altar, that he may die." (Exodus 21:12-13)

The above clearly indicates that under the divinely given Jewish civil law, Capital punishment was prescribed for premeditated murder, but not for accidental manslaughter.

In any event, the teaching of the Word on killing in both the NT and the OT is far more complex than a simple blanket prohibition.

- SEAGOON

lukster · « **Reply #5 on:** August 10, 2006, 11:37:27 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by cpxxx
Never mind the bible. What do the ten commandments say about war?

'Thou shalt not kill'.

Hmm, no room for interpretation there.

There is room for translation though and I believe the original text meant "Thou shalt not murder".

midnight Target · « **Reply #6 on:** August 10, 2006, 11:41:49 AM »

You really need a whole conference for this?

Comon man, you're either with the terrorists or you're with the Bible.

cpxxx · « **Reply #7 on:** August 10, 2006, 01:07:39 PM »

Ok, having been duly corrected. Thou shalt not murder.
So killing is OK as long as they are evil doers, murderers and enemies.
Suddenly all is clear. Killing is good and neccessary. Of course enemies is a nicely broad term. Innocent civilians, men, women and children are fair game. People on airliners, in houses, in cars. People in the wrong place at the wrong time. As long as it's war it's OK. It's not murder.

You know until now, I had an incomplete understanding of the of the mentality of the Jihadists. Now I see the Christian opposite.

They say you learn something new every day and I have today. Why do I feel slightly sick?

Thank you, Seagoon.

Hawco · « **Reply #8 on:** August 10, 2006, 01:16:41 PM »

Depending on what sort of Christian you are, then there are many many interpratations to make on the bibles thoughts RE: the above.
On one extreme we have the Far right, fundalmentailsts gagging for another war so we can have the rapture they are so convinced is about to happen and on the other side you could have say, the methodists for example who don't advocate war based on their interpration of the bible.
I guess it all comes down to who has the best marketing plan and cash flow in terms of winning converts to their train of thought or getting a message across that is particular to the intepretaion.

Elfie · « **Reply #9 on:** August 10, 2006, 01:17:27 PM »

You are taking the whole thing out of context Cpxxx.

Seagoon · « **Reply #10 on:** August 10, 2006, 02:00:33 PM »

Hello again Cpxxx,

Quote

Originally posted by cpxxx
Ok, having been duly corrected. Thou shalt not murder.
So killing is OK as long as they are evil doers, murderers and enemies.
Suddenly all is clear. Killing is good and neccessary. Of course enemies is a nicely broad term. Innocent civilians, men, women and children are fair game. People on airliners, in houses, in cars. People in the wrong place at the wrong time. As long as it's war it's OK. It's not murder.

You know until now, I had an incomplete understanding of the of the mentality of the Jihadists. Now I see the Christian opposite.

They say you learn something new every day and I have today. Why do I feel slightly sick?

Thank you, Seagoon.

How on earth do you move from what I wrote to the monstrous idea that I endorse unilaterally killing innocent civillians?

I believe that the Magistrate was given the power of the sword and may lawfully exercise that right only in the prosecution of a just war against an aggressor or in punishing capital crimes like murder. I do not believe in Terrorism, revenge, feuding, brawling, duels, or a host of other forms of violence. I certainly do not believe in some sort of reverse Jihad or Christian "Holy War."*

Can I take it from your response Cpxxx that you are an absolute pacifist and would not approve of killing even to defend yourself or your countrymen from unprovoked aggression or to stop civillians being slaughtered by terrorists? Also that you believe that is wrong and immoral to have an army or an armed police and that when police officers or soldiers kill, it is always an abominable act of murder?

EDIT: *PDFs and/or AUDIO of what I do believe and teach regarding violence and the taking of human life are available here:
The Sixth Commandment, pts.1-4

- SEAGOON

StSanta · « **Reply #11 on:** August 10, 2006, 02:21:15 PM »

Yo Seagoon.

So we got this thou shalt not murder thing.

Who decides what is a murder? In non theocratic countries, the regime does. In theocratic countries, the priesthood does.

So, if the law says that it's ok to stone a woman because she was raped and now is unclean, her killing would be lawful. It wouldn't be murder.

Who's laws are we talking about here? You're the expert on the Bible laws. Setting aside the Old Testament and its many examples of righteous killings, in what cases would Jesus say "right, this man deserves to die"?

GtoRA2 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 10, 2006, 02:46:30 PM »

Can't you Christian haters just leave the poor guy alone? Try and show some tolerance for other views for a change.

Seagoon · « **Reply #13 on:** August 10, 2006, 03:07:46 PM »

Hi St,

Quote

Originally posted by StSanta
Yo Seagoon.

So we got this thou shalt not murder thing.

Who decides what is a murder? In non theocratic countries, the regime does. In theocratic countries, the priesthood does.

So, if the law says that it's ok to stone a woman because she was raped and now is unclean, her killing would be lawful. It wouldn't be murder.

Who's laws are we talking about here? You're the expert on the Bible laws. Setting aside the Old Testament and its many examples of righteous killings, in what cases would Jesus say "right, this man deserves to die"?

Again, you're essentially asking me to do the conference myself here via online exchanges.

For what it is worth, in the civil law of Israel, a raped woman was the innocent party and it was her rapist who was the malefactor. The Islamic idea that you punish the victim is not endorsed.

The Bible simply teaches that the deliberate unjust taking of human life is murder because humans are created in the image of God.

As for what Christ and the apostles endorsed, neither Christ nor the Apostles condemned the profession of soldier, in fact several soldiers in the NT were commended for the faith and none were ever told to leave their profession. Also, at no point did Jesus or the apostles condemn capital punishment in and of itself, Paul twice makes it clear that he accepted that the authorities had the right to put criminals to death. What they were universally critical of was murder, regardless of whether the perpetrators were civilians, soldiers, or politicians.

What I tend to find, is that people today want the Bible to teach absolute pacifism, even though they have no intention of following that teaching. In other words, they want Jesus and the Apostles to set an ideal that would only be tenable in a sinless utopia, so they can say "wouldn't it be nice if..." and have an idealistic objective that every student of actual human nature knows is impossible to achieve. That way they can shrug and say, "I wish I could follow the teachings of Jesus but since we've just been attacked, we are going to have to do some killing..."

We want impossible ideals to make us feel better, not actual commandments to live by. We want a tame, defanged, Santa Claus kind of God, not the righteous and terrifying God of the Bible. C.S. Lewis captured this idea well in "The Lion the Witch and the Wardrobe" when he has Lucy ask if Aslan is "safe" to which the reply comes, "No he is not safe, but he is good." We like gentle Jesus meek and mild, but we don't like the Jesus who purged the temple or the Jesus who returns at the end as the warrior king to judge the living and the dead. So when the Bible teaches us that Christ is both and that it depends on your relation to Him, we reject that and instead reshape him as the non-bibilcal Jesus we'd prefer.

- SEAGOON

Tarmac · « **Reply #14 on:** August 10, 2006, 03:11:50 PM »

That begs the question of how murder is defined, and who defines it. Is it possible for a society to be so misguided in its definition of murder that it is a sin to execute a "criminal" under its laws? If so, who has sinned? The executioner, the judge/jury, the lawmakers, or the society that supports them (or elected them, depending on system of govt)?

Can a soldier following orders ever commit "murder" or is he absolved of responsibility (in God's eyes) through the human construct called chain of command?

I'm no peacenik by any means - there are plenty of people that I think deserve a lead lobotomy right between the eyes - but I'm curious as to what the Bible says about it (as I'm not nearly as well versed in the Bible as Seagoon is).