Author Topic: The world according to the USA  (Read 891 times)

Offline Boroda

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The world according to the USA
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2001, 11:46:00 AM »
Dinger, I just answer in the same manner as some of my opponents here on this board  

Looks like I have to think each time I try to show sarcasm. Frankly speaking I thought that 3 smiles in the end will be enough.

As for the Fourth Crusade - I don't agree with your point of view. Plundering Constantinopolis was a traditional Russian sport before Vladimir the Bright Sun, and if the 1204 slaughter was a "greatest achievement" of the Western Europe - than Russians definetly didn't beat it.

BTW, Crusaders perfomed a nice genocide against Orthodox and Pagan Slavs 35 years later. In fact Slavs were lucky that St. Alexander of Neva allied with Mongols and kicked their "civilised" butts.

BTW, the role of Orthodox Church in modern Russia is IMHO overestimated. Bishops have their own quiet business selling tax-free tobacco and wine, but they do not interfere in big politics. In Russian Empire the religion was a state thing, and an only reason for discrimination.

Difference between Orthodox and Catholic religions is too big. The "break-up" happened in 1054, long before Protestantism and other minor trends sepatated from Western Christians.

BTW, Nikei counsil was not the first conflict in Christian church. Remember Nestorians (probably the most powerful religion in Great Steppes in First Millenium and the beginning of the Second), then Armenians etc.

About Ethnogenesis theory, "guests", and other ethnic relations - please, find any works by Lev Gumilev, Soviet historian, son of Nikolay Gumilev. The most important (and easy to read) works are "Ethnogenesis and the Biosphere of Earth" (the main fundamental work), "Ancient Russia and the Great Steppe" (the history of Tartar invasion, or, according to Gumilev - a Russian-Tartar alliance) and "Searching for an Imaginary Kingdom" (a study about Nestorians). If you are not afraid of serious historical works - you'll really enjoy it.

Edit: too many "BTW"s  

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    Pavel Pavlov,
    Commissar 25th IAP WB VVS

[This message has been edited by Boroda (edited 05-23-2001).]

Offline Dinger

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The world according to the USA
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2001, 12:40:00 PM »
Boroda, I knew what you were doing; I was actually hoping you'd recognize my response.  I guess I wasn't extreme enough.      

The Fourth Crusade: It's a common belief that Pope Innocent III orchestrated the sack of Constantinople.  That's just not true, period.  The Crusade got deviated to Constantinople for a variety of reasons, which I'd be happy to go into if you'd care to hear it.  The pope repeatedly warned the Crusaders not to go to Constantinople.  In the end, when he was presented with the fait accompli of the fourth crusade and the union of the churches, he did accept it.

Sure, the division between the Catholic and Orthodox churches occurred in 1054, and was largely concerned with fights over the interpolation of the word filioque in the Niceo-Constantinapolitan creed.  We can talk about the procession of the Holy Spirit, whether its heretical to use unleavened bread in the Eucharist, and the rest of the nonsense.  But don't forget the attempts at church union at the Councils of Lyon and Florence.

Ah, yes, Alexander Nevsky and the Teutonic Knights.  A fine Eisenstein movie, btw.  
The notion of Crusade was born late and slapped on to all kinds of things.  My personal favorite is the Children's Crusade, which is probably more myth than truth, but makes a damn fine story.

Yes, you shouldn't forget the Arian Christians, the Copts and the Maronites either.
The Catholic/Orthodox slam is that while, theologically the Catholic church developed a notion of being the universal Christian church (and thus offensive to anybody in the East, who considered themselves both Christian and "Not those guys"), and tried to integrate the other groups (such as the Armenians, MAronites, Nestorians, Jacobites and Greeks) into the one, universal church (not gonna work guys), the theological response of their adversaries was one of defining things along ethnic lines.
Politically, of course, things were different.  But theologically, it worked this way (note: I'm looking specifically at the Greek Church): Here comes a bunch of well meaning but ignorant Dominicans and Franciscans to the East, to try to make the Christian population realize they're part of one universal, pan-cultural church, just with different rites.  Of course, there are a few small things they have to agree with, such as the nature of the Trinity (!).
There are two reactions:
A. You guys are full of crap.  There's no way you can prove those arguments the way you do.  Aristotelian logic cannot be used in matters of faith; here's what we honestly believe.

B. Not only are those guys full of crap, so is A.  A. shouldn't use logic in discussing faith.

A. B. is a moron, plus what some of his buddies are saying is, frankly, heretical.
B. A. is an amazinhunk, plus he's a foreigner.  Remember the Fourth Crusade?  Do you want those foreign bastards running your religion?


B. wins, and ethnicity becomes a mainstream current in (Greek) Orthodox theology.  A. says, "Screw this" becomes a Catholic and lives out a comfortable life without renouncing his "Greek Heresies".

So the palamite/hesychastic theological foundation for the church wins out, and the place of ethnicity in orthodoxy is reinforced.

Meanwhile, in the West, there's the reformation, and the council of trent.  Then the RCC becomes really nutty too.

In all fairness, there are other trends in modern orthodox theology, some of which are coming to the surface now.  But tradition is hard to break, and even today, you can't publish balanced treatments of dude A. in certain parts of the world without people thinking you're slamming their church.  However great a thinker and mystic Palamas was, his arguments in the fight with Barlaam, a fight that shaped the modern Orthodox religion, need to be inspired by God to be considered superior to his adversary.

Anyawy, I'm sure there are strong biological drives against people of differnet ethnicities; it's an ugly part of human behaviour, and one that manifests itself continuously throughout human history.

Finally, I recognize that, for a host of cultural and political reasons, the Russian Orthodox Church is not as powerful or pervasive in Russia as the Greek Orthodox church is down South.

Offline mrfish

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The world according to the USA
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2001, 01:27:00 PM »
 
Quote
Originally posted by tofri:
LOL  

If you ever met them on their "Europe in 5 days Tour", you know it is true.  

ain't that the truth! sometimes i wonder if those vacationing americans are really americans at all! or maybe just imposters posing as american, sent by the canadians abroad in shorts and black kneesocks to make us look bad.

"i've been trying to get out of this garage all day but every corner has a silly little sign that says ausfahrt! - you people should label things!"

Offline Dowding

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The world according to the USA
« Reply #18 on: May 23, 2001, 03:49:00 PM »
 
Quote
The ignorance that us Americans display is merely a drop in a very big bucket filled with past generations from around the world... with Europe contributing more than its fair share

I don't think it's particularly fair to compare modern day America with medieval Europe, do you?

War! Never been so much fun. War! Never been so much fun! Go to your brother, Kill him with your gun, Leave him lying in his uniform, Dying in the sun.

Offline Dux

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The world according to the USA
« Reply #19 on: May 23, 2001, 05:42:00 PM »
pretty colors  
Rogue Squadron, CO
5th AF, FSO Squadron, Member

We all have a blind date with Destiny... and it looks like she's ordered the lobster.

Mk10=Ravens

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The world according to the USA
« Reply #20 on: May 23, 2001, 05:45:00 PM »
Neat.  Kind of reminds me of a BattleTech map.  

I say we change from "The United States of American" to "The House of Steiner."

Mk

Offline loser

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The world according to the USA
« Reply #21 on: May 23, 2001, 07:38:00 PM »
hah cyrano!!! no penguins anywhere near iceland.  

-yet another useless post for me!

Offline Jack55

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The world according to the USA
« Reply #22 on: May 23, 2001, 08:07:00 PM »

I never knew the Queen was a Disney employee.


Offline AKDejaVu

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The world according to the USA
« Reply #23 on: May 23, 2001, 11:13:00 PM »
 
Quote
I don't think it's particularly fair to compare modern day America with medieval Europe, do you?

Ah.. so now this thread is about being fair?  Here I thought it was about stereotyping based on observing tourists, television and the media.

AKDejaVu

[This message has been edited by AKDejaVu (edited 05-23-2001).]

Offline StSanta

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The world according to the USA
« Reply #24 on: May 24, 2001, 12:10:00 AM »
I got me own li'l place  

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Von Santa
Staffelkapitän 9./JG 54 "Grünherz"
"If you return from a mission with a victory, but without your Rottenflieger, you have lost your battle."
- D. Hrabak, JG 54 "Grünherz"