Author Topic: Good thing the O'Club isn't Hosted in Oz...  (Read 384 times)

Offline Seagoon

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Good thing the O'Club isn't Hosted in Oz...
« on: August 22, 2006, 04:08:19 PM »
The following is from The Age, an Australian Newspaper. It is a report an ongoing appeal on the part of two Australian Pastors, Daniel Scot and Danny Nalliah, both of whom are originally from Muslim nations who were prosecuted under the Racial and Religious Tolerance act, for holding a seminar on Islam in 2002 in which they discussed Islamic doctrine and the Koran. At no point did they incite hatred towards Muslims or even suggest that people act violently towards Muslims, and in fact that wasn't even alleged in the charges, rather it is charged that portraying Islam in a negative light amounted to an act of hatred towards Muslims.

Bizzarre as it may seem, this law is being used as in Australia to prevent "blasphemy" against Islam in a manner similar to anti-blasphemy laws in countries that enforce Sharia (though thankfully without the death penalty called for under Sharia). This isn't the first time Daniel Scot has had to deal with prosecution under anti-Blasphemy laws, as his own biography notes:

“Daniel Scot is a Pakistani who came to Australia in the late 1980's.

He was forced to leave Pakistan after being charged under the blasphemy laws for which the penalty is death. He was one of only two Christian lecturers in Mathematics in Pakistan at university level. He was not only on top of the merit list when he competed for the position, but obtained 100 % in Islamic knowledge which were part of his examination for the position of lecturer in Mathematics.

He lectured at Queensland University in Mathematics. He reads and writes classical Arabic and speaks a total of 4 languages.

He is a Christian but is regarded as a world non-Islamic Authority on Islam and lectures in various parliament houses in Australia on Islamic matters and travels the world lecturing on Islam.”



Quote
Barney Zwartz
August 22, 2006

IT IS impossible to vilify Islam without also vilifying Muslims, because the two are indistinguishable, the Victorian Court of Appeal was told yesterday.

"If one vilifies Islam, one is by necessary consequence vilifying people who hold that religious belief," Brind Woinarski, QC, told the court.

Mr Woinarski was appearing for the Islamic Council of Victoria in the appeal by Christian group Catch the Fire Ministries and pastors Danny Nalliah and Daniel Scot against a finding under Victoria's religious hatred law that they vilified Muslims in 2002. The Racial and Religious Tolerance Act defines vilification as inciting hatred, serious contempt, revulsion or severe ridicule against a person or class of persons.

Cameron Macaulay, for the pastors, argued that the act explicitly confined the prohibition to vilifying persons, not the religion — otherwise it could operate as a law against blasphemy. Instead, it recognised one could hate the idea without hating the person.

Justice Geoffrey Nettle asked Mr Woinarski: "There must be intellectually a distinction between the ideas and those who hold them?" "We don't agree with that," Mr Woinarski said. "But in this case it's an irrelevant distinction, because Muslims and Islam were mishmashed up together."

Justice Nettle: "Are you saying it's impossible to incite hatred against a religion without also inciting hatred against people who hold it?" Mr Woinarski: "Yes."

Mr Macaulay said orders by Judge Michael Higgins against the pastors to take out a newspaper advertisement apologising and not to repeat certain teachings were too wide, and beyond his powers under the act.

He said it was surprising that the pastors could hold the beliefs but not express them. "They are restrained by law from suggesting or implying a number of things about what in their view the Koran teaches: that it preaches violence and killing, that women are of little value, that the God of Islam, Allah, is not merciful, that there is a practice of 'silent jihad' for spreading Islam, or that the Koran says Allah will remit the sins of martyrs.

"Contentious or otherwise, these are opinions about Islam's doctrines and teaching. Statements of this kind are likely to offend and insult Muslims but their feelings are not relevant under the act." Mr Macaulay said the act burdened free speech, contravened international treaties Australia had signed and breached the Australian constitution.

The act, amended in May, has been controversial. Opponents rallied against it outside Parliament earlier this month, and some Christians vowed to make it an issue at the state election.

This case has been monitored by Christian and Muslim groups overseas, and at one point Judge Higgins had to assure the Foreign Affairs Department he was not considering jailing the pastors after a flood of emails from America.

The case continues today.


I believe Danny Nalliah nailed it when he was quoted in The Australian as saying: "I have lived in Saudi Arabia and learned the real nature of Islam. It is to dominate other religions and other cultures. The Koran speaks of world domination. I have spoken to a lot of Muslim leaders who say it is easy to exploit the Western system. The say the key is to be patient, to learn the language, and to build up numbers. Then build up political power."

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
"We have no government armed with power capable of contending with human passions unbridled by morality and religion... Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

Offline Momus--

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« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2006, 04:24:44 PM »
Quote
At no point did they incite hatred towards Muslims or even suggest that people act violently towards Muslims, and in fact that wasn't even alleged in the charges, rather it is charged that portraying Islam in a negative light amounted to an act of hatred towards Muslims.


That's their story anyway. The law in question actually permits a defence on the basis of either public interest or when statements are made for a genuinely religious purpose.  

The original trial judge however found that:

Quote
.. Mr Scot's conduct was not reasonable and in good faith for any genuinely religious purpose or in the public interest.. He found Mr Scot's evidence evasive and twice lacking credibility. Judge Higgins said the newsletter, ... sought to create fear of Muslims and was likely to incite hatred..


Source

That said, the outcome of the appeal should be interesting.

Offline Elfie

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« Reply #2 on: August 22, 2006, 04:35:56 PM »
Islam trying to stifle anything that makes Islam look bad kinda reminds me of the Spanish Inquisition where anyone who questioned the Church was a heretic that only deserved torture and death unless they repented.
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Offline ChickenHawk

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« Reply #3 on: August 22, 2006, 05:12:00 PM »
Quote
The Racial and Religious Tolerance Act defines vilification as inciting hatred, serious contempt, revulsion or severe ridicule against a person or class of persons.


Sounds like a poorly written law open to too wide an interpretation.  Does stating facts about a particular religion equate to hate speech against an ethnic group?  Seems like this law leaves that to interpretation.  If so, can a teacher be prosecuted for teaching about all the unflattering things Christians have done in the last two thousand years in history class?

I think our friends down under might need to take another look at this one.
« Last Edit: August 22, 2006, 05:14:30 PM by ChickenHawk »
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Offline GtoRA2

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« Reply #4 on: August 23, 2006, 09:43:53 AM »
Interesting, so no freedom of speach or religion huh?

Offline john9001

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« Reply #5 on: August 23, 2006, 10:41:43 AM »
first Oz takes away the guns , now they take away free speech,

Offline Seagoon

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« Reply #6 on: August 23, 2006, 02:22:41 PM »
Dear Momus,

The law in question is interesting in that it is one of the few in Australian history to ever unite Greens and Conservatives in opposition. Generally everyone in favor of free speech detests it. I sense that if a law was passed that forbade University Professors to discuss Christianity in what Christians perceived to be "a negative light" you too would be up in arms against it.

Regarding the talk itself, its become clear that the original judge's decision were highly flawed and largely stemmed from the fact that he did not understand Islamic doctrine nearly as well as Daniel Scot. For instance:

Quote
As second example, Judge Higgins cites Scot’s discussion of the penalty for theft. Under cross examination, Scot had said that only after a thief’s hand is cut off (Sura 5: 38) is he to be shown mercy (Sura 5:39). His Honour describes Scot’s discussion of this as ‘astounding’, and his reasoning ‘illogical and unsustainable’. He comes to this view based on an assertion from the bar table, and without hearing any evidence that Scot’s interpretations were wrong.

The matter arose because it had been put to Scot by counsel for the complainants that he could have drawn his audience’s attention to Sura 5:39, to balance the interpretation of 5:38. In other words, his listeners could have been informed that the Qur’an could be read more sympathetically, that the mercy of 5:39 might reduce the penalty of 5:38.

As it happens, Scot’s interpretation of this passage is traditional and quite accurate. Hadiths place these two verses together in a specific ‘context of revelation’ (asbab al-nuzul): they were ‘revealed’ during an incident involving the punishment of a female thief during Muhammad’s lifetime.

The hadiths which support this interpretation (see e.g. tafsir.com) make crystal clear that mercy is to be applied after amputation. Muhammad even declares that if his own daughter Fatimah had stolen something, he would have her hand cut off.

This is an example of a theological principle relating to Islamic hudud punishments, that the penalty atones for the crime. After punishment the person is considered purified and free of the offence, acceptable to Muhammad and to God, in this life and the next, and thus a worthy recipient of kind treatment. Indeed the Hadiths relating to these verses describe how Muhammad showed kindness to the female thief after her hand had been amputated. The correct interpretation of verse 39 is that Muslims should treat amputated thieves with kindness and mercy, as long as they have repented after punishment, and do not steal any more. Scot’s teaching in the seminar, and his replies under cross-examination, hold up very well.

His Honour’s apparent confusion over this matter is apparent when he further reports that: “Verse 40 then spells out punishment of a severe kind, e.g. losing a leg, for a further offence.” In fact verse 40 says nothing of the sort, and the only reference to this verse during the hearing was that Scot had made a mark against it for some reason in his copy of the Qur’an! It is puzzling to say the least how His Honour could have come to this conclusion about verse 40.

One reading of His Honour’s finding is that he is rejecting orthodox Islamic interpretations of the Qur’an as ‘illogical, unsustainable’ and ‘astounding’. Many might find this a bold and courageous judgment.

However it is more likely that Judge Higgins’ discussion of this matter merely demonstrates a poor grasp of Islamic jurisprudence. It is hardly surprising that an Australian judge is not qualified to rule on a matter of Islamic law. What is more troubling is that Judge Higgins had been presented with considerable amounts of evidence throughout the trial from both sides concerning the fact that the Qur’an is to be interpreted in context, and that this context would include the Hadiths. Yet he apparently overlooked all this in a crucial consideration of the question of Scot’s credibility, a matter on which the whole outcome of the trial hinged. If Scot’s answers seemed to His Honour to be incomprehensible and ‘astounding’, this was enough to prove his dishonesty.

Another troubling aspect of this particular matter is that Judge Higgins had found Scot was too ‘literalistic’ in his approach to the Qur’an, and that he did not attend to context. This lay at the heart of his objection to Scot’s manner of interpreting the Qur’an. Yet in relying on his own ability to interpret the text, His Honour ignores context, and does the very thing he has criticized Scot for.

His Honour also appears to rely too much on his own legal world view—that it is illogical to apply mercy after punishment. He does not take into account the theological values attached to the concept of mercy in Islam, and specifically the eternal dimension of relationship with Allah, which means that people are as much in need of Allah’s mercy after punishment as they were before.

All this goes to vindicate Scot, who rightly defends his interpretation of the verses —however counter-intuitive it sounds to an Australian judge’s ears — because he appears to have studied the matter and has taken into account the context in which the verses arose.  


Full text: http://www.onlineopinion.com.au/view.asp?article=3050

- SEAGOON
SEAGOON aka Pastor Andy Webb
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Offline Momus--

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« Reply #7 on: August 23, 2006, 02:55:12 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Seagoon
Generally everyone in favor of free speech detests it. I sense that if a law was passed that forbade University Professors to discuss Christianity in what Christians perceived to be "a negative light" you too would be up in arms against it.


You sense wrong then. Such legislation I generally find distasteful, but if it is going to be used then it should be applied to all religions across the board. It just seems that in this instance, christians have managed to fall foul of this particular law, whilst apparently no muslims have to date.

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Regarding the talk itself, its become clear that the original judge's decision were highly flawed and largely stemmed from the fact that he did not understand Islamic doctrine nearly as well as Daniel Scot.


That's one opinion certainly.  As I said, it will be interesting to see the verdict in the appeal.

Offline Scherf

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« Reply #8 on: August 23, 2006, 05:47:36 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by john9001
first Oz takes away the guns , now they take away free speech,


zomg teh howerd is teh hitlar !!!111!!!one!!1
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Offline Pei

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« Reply #9 on: August 23, 2006, 10:29:37 PM »
Bloody hell, no guns *and* no blasphemy? No more robbing churches and mosques at gun-point for me!
« Last Edit: August 23, 2006, 10:31:39 PM by Pei »